Dual (or multiple) Battery systems

[BajaTaco]

This will be a place for discussion of dual battery systems (or multiple battery systems). Post your particular setup here - or ask questions - or discuss ideas and theories. Link to neat products you know about - whatever. Particularly useful info. will be copied from this thread, to the "Compilation of Great Technical Postings" section for preservation and quick access to useful info.


http://www.bajataco.com

[BajaTaco]

Tawàyama was asking about my particular setup. So here is an overview:

(EDIT: You can also seean article (http://www.bajataco.com/dualbatts/dualbatteries01.html) on my website)


Dual battery system.
Optima Red Top starting battery
Optima yellow top Group 31 deep cycle aux. battery.
Xantrex Pathmaker 100 amp battery control system
Battery (dual) energy gauge
Stock Toyota Tacoma alternator (70-90 amps?)
I have both batteries installed in the engine bay under the hood. The pathmaker unit comes assembled on a board, with the controller and batterysolenoid (isolator)mounted next to each other. I took this apart, and mounted the solenoid in the engine bay, and the controller inside the cabin (http://www.bajataco.com/fridge/fridge016.jpg). I built a custom enclosurefor the control panel, which you can see with the cover open HERE (http://www.bajataco.com/fridge/fridge018.jpg). Below the controller is the battery energy gauge, which reads like a fuel gauge does, to show how much "fuel" is left inthe batteries.


The Pathmaker controller can be seen in detail at the Xantrex website (http://www.xantrex.com/products/product.asp?did=207). Basically, it is a combiner/isolator. It will disconnect the batteries at a determined voltage which can be adjusted by the user. It also has an adjustable connect voltage. And it will also combine the batteries to provide extra power if needed - such as emergency starting.


I originally had some headaches with my deep cycle battery, which is unfortunate since this whole thing has been expirimental for me, and I was worried that my system had a flaw. But it seems that the battery I purchased (from a dealer on eBay) was defective and would not keep take a charge after I had deeply discharged it for the first time. The battery was under full warranty from Optima, so Optima sent me (via FedEx!) a brand new battery and it seems to be working great so far.


One thing I would have loved to do, is get a more robust alternator and corresponding higher rated Pathmaker unit. But due to budgetary considerations, this did not happen. So far the stock alternator is working good. But some day I might like to upgrade it.
Tawàyama, please tell us some more about your system inyour trucksand the chuck wagon. I saw the pics and info on the chuck wagon page (http://tawayama.com/gear/trailer/chuckwagon.html), and it looks like your trucks will charge the chuckwagon batteries. But this would mean charging (four?) batteries at once? What kind of alternator(s) do you have? What kind of isolators? Can you combine batteries?







BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

Post Edited (BajaTaco) : 6/12/2005 10:17:20 PM (GMT-8)

[transalper]

I am looking into a very simple system that uses a 200 amp relay and a marine-grade switch, like this:
http://www.sleeoffroad.com/technical/tz_dual_batteries.htm

Only problem is I have no idea where to mount the battery. The bonnet is full Captain!

</div>

Jay - 97 4Runner
www.geocities.com/transalper/4runner (http://www.geocities.com/transalper/4runner)

[MrS]

I'm running a SurePower dual batter isolator in a 2001 Tacoma using the stock alternator. I have a flooded cell Die Hard, as my starting battery under the hood and a AGM marine in my bed as my aux battery. I mounted the Isolator on the inner fender behind the stock battery, this puts it close to the alt. I then ran 4ga wire to the aux battery.


I Have been running this set-up since 8-01 and it has been trouble free. All isolators have a few short comings, but I am very happy with this set-up and plan to make no changes.


If you have questions feel free to e mail me.
steveanita@worldnet.att.net

</div>


KF6YSB

Post Edited (MrS) : 3/10/2004 6:11:07 PM GMT

[MrS]

transalper said...
I am looking into a very simple system that uses a 200 amp relay and a marine-grade switch, like this..
That is a good basicly simple set-up that offers alot of power, like running welders or long pull winch runs. You must keep the batteries very close together and use larger cable, otherwise you run the risk of fire. Most set-up like that mount the batts within a foot or so of each other.

Keep us posted as to cost and how it works-out.

I have both a winch (on the shelf)and welder (comp of 4RDave)and plan to use them, I leaning more towards some of the 24 volt systems, but have a few things on the list first :-) Otherwise I might like to add a set-up like youwant to what I have.

BTW, are you the same transalper over on yotatech??





KF6YSB

[Tawayama]

Alright BajaTaco, here's some info on the system's I'm running, and/or plan to run.

Currently I have two blue-top Optima's in my Range Rover, connected in parallel, no electronic isolator, but I do have a marine cut-off switch on one of the terminals.

You can see the battery and switch below.

http://www.tawayama.com/gear/LWBRangeRover/4762.jpg

On the CrewCab I have dual Odessey batteries (1200's) mounted in parallel too. I have 'accidentally' killed both of the batteries by leaving my inverter on overnight. Doh! /forum/emoticons/banghead.gif

I have purchased a very simple 300a switch from BEP Marine. Here's a pic of it.

http://www.tawayama.com/gear/randompics/BEPisolator.jpg

I haven't installed it yet, but plan to do so soon. The specs of it are on their website www.bepmarine.com (http://www.bepmarine.com)

The dual-battery system in the ChuckWagon are dual blue-top Optima's, with no isolation. I do run a 60amp maxi-fuze inline 'just in case' something weird should happen.

The alternator in the CrewCab is from Wrangler NW www.wranglernw.com (http://www.wranglernw.com) and is 140amps I think.

I have a high-output alternator in my Range Rover too.

Yeah, I guess that if I drained all four batteries it would take me a week of driving around to charge them all up, so I try not to get them all drained down.

I need to get that isolator switch mounted soon. This thread will motivate me to finally finish it (I've had the parts for months now).

/forum/emoticons/smilewinkgrin.gif

Michael Slade
Tawàyama Safaris Inc.
http://www.tawayama.com

[transalper]

Iprobably won't be able to have my batteries close together, so if that is a limitation with this set-up I'll have to do something different. I'll probably go with an isolator system like yours eventually.
And yes, I am the same Transalper as on Yotatech and a few other boards. I am addicted to these boards and am struggling to limit myself to checking in 2 times per day . . . There must be a 12 step system for this problem. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/ieh.gif

MrS said...

[quote]

transalper said...
I am looking into a very simple system that uses a 200 amp relay and a marine-grade switch, like this..
That is a good basicly simple set-up that offers alot of power, like running welders or long pull winch runs. You must keep the batteries very close together and use larger cable, otherwise you run the risk of fire. Most set-up like that mount the batts within a foot or so of each other.

Keep us posted as to cost and how it works-out.

I have both a winch (on the shelf)and welder (comp of 4RDave)and plan to use them, I leaning more towards some of the 24 volt systems, but have a few things on the list first :-) Otherwise I might like to add a set-up like youwant to what I have.

BTW, are you the same transalper over on yotatech??




</div>


Jay - 97 4Runner
www.geocities.com/transalper/4runner (http://www.geocities.com/transalper/4runner)

[Tawayama]

Yeah, board addiction is bad. I love getting cool feedback and great ideas, but I find myself watching too many boards too much.

If there's a 12 step program, please share it.

:)

Sorry for the tangent.

Michael Slade
Tawàyama Safaris Inc.
http://www.tawayama.com

[blupaddler]

Forgive me if I http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/smashfreakb.gif

I have heard of dual battery systems for a while now, but usually only on my friends big Ford diesel trucks. So I am still new to this and understanding it all. With that said, I am realizing the benefits of said dual batteries on remote trips and such.


If I am not getting too far ahead of myself, can I with a dual system, run off just one at a time. For example at camp to run the fridge and or power inverter, then in the morning switch the battery over to start up the truck? Then while running charge the second battery that was drained overnight using the extra equipment.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/idea.gif

http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/ok-kewl.gif


This is the impression I get from listening from everyone's discussion, am I correct?
If so MrS, it seems as if your set-up is simple do you have any diagrams of yours. Or any suggestions?

robb

[transalper]

Here's info on some different approaches:

Isolator basics: http://www.pplmotorhomes.com/parts/rv-converters/dual-battery-isolator.pdf
Isolator write-up: http://www.webejeepin.com/jeep-electrical.htm

Solenoid and Switch: http://www.sleeoffroad.com/technical/tz_dual_batteries.htmPathmaker Isolator/Combiner: http://www.xantrex.com/products/product.asp?did=207
Hellroaring Isolator/Combiner: http://www.hellroaring.com/4wheel.htm
Voltage Sensitive Relay (VSR): ?

OK experts, what are the advatages/disadvantages of each of these approaches? Isolator vs Solenoid vs VSR vs Solenoid/Switch vs Isolator/Combiner? What other approaches are there?

Jay - 97 4Runner
www.geocities.com/transalper/4runner (http://www.geocities.com/transalper/4runner)

[BajaTaco]

This is a great discussion. Tawàyama, thanks for sharing the info. Jay, great links - I will check them out (some I already have).

Robb, to answer your question - yes. That is pretty much what you can do with the dual battery system. The nice thing is that when you run those appliances and toys at camp, over-night, etc., your starting battery will be completely isolated, and therefore safe, waiting to start your truck with a full charge. Another possible benefit is that if your starting battery is not a deep cycle, and you run most of your accessories from a secondary battery,thereare less loads being placed on your starting battery which will most likely make it last longer. (If you have a deep cycle starting battery, this doesn't really matter).


http://www.bajataco.com

[MrS]

blupaddler said...
can I with a dual system, run off just one at a time. For example at camp to run the fridge and or power inverter, then in the morning switch the battery over to start up the truck? IMO the number one thing to a dual battery set-up is figure out what you plan to do, then pick a system.

blupaddler that is what I do, and and isolator like surepower makes works fine. BUT a combiner like Pathmaker makes could work better, but more $$s.

I always use a diode instead of a switch if I can.

BYT, with an Isolator there is nothing to switch, it's a no-brainer, your starting battery is just like stock, and your aux battery drains from what ever loads you hook to it.

KF6YSB

[MrS]

Tawàyama said...
If there's a 12 step program, please share it.
I have a one step program:

1. Go Wheeling

1. go make mods on the truck

1. help friends on their truck

1. shop mods
http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/joker1.gif http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/joker1.gif

KF6YSB

[Tawayama]

gimme some more info. on that Xantrex battery management system.

Looks interesting.

Michael Slade
Tawàyama Safaris Inc.
http://www.tawayama.com

[MrS]

transalper said...


OK experts, what are the advatages/disadvantages of each of these approaches? Isolator vs Solenoid vs VSR vs Solenoid/Switch vs Isolator/Combiner? What other approaches are there?
</div>Thanks for all the links.

Listing all the advantages/disadvantages is way more than
I can type. It takes a book to cover it all. Goodtimes is better at that and maybe he'll write something.

Basicly the rule is:

High amp draw, you need a solenoid.

Low amp draw, you need an isolator.

There are many short coming to all set-ups,but depending on your needs, the short coming are un-noticed if you pick the right set-up.

If anyone wants to, we can talk on the phone, it's real fast to explain alot more stuff talking to the person than write everything, that would bore most to sleep anyway. E-mail me at steveanita@worldnet.att.net, we'll set-up something. Even if you just want to learn a little, feel free to contact me, I love talking trucks and deserts.

Hope I helped a little.





KF6YSB

[BajaTaco]

I am definitely not qualified to give a reliable assesment of what is best forany givenapplication when considering all of the available options. It seems to me though, based on the research that I have done, that a system with a heavy duty solenoid or switch is best for someone who plans to run a winch or welder, or similar high-amp stuff. The Pathmaker unit that I use is not robust enough for continuous duty combining for running heavy equipment like that. If you don't plan to run that stuff, then the other options are certainly viable. The more expensive systems like the Xantrex Pathmaker, Hellroaring, and others, seem to just refine the manipulation of energy that is being directed through the system. It's my impression that they sense voltage in a more exacting way, so as to more precicely control it - such as voltage spike protection, and being able to fine tune connect and disconnect voltages. They also have less voltage loss across them, so that perhaps they allow a little bit faster charging - or more complete charging. The simpler setups seem like they work just though - MrS can attest to that.

The one thing I would NEVER do, is use a system that has a switch that must be operated by YOU in order to isolate or combine the batteries. Relying on our own memory to keep the batteries alive is not a good idea, especially if you have a brain like mine http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Tawàyama, the Pathmaker info is HERE (http://www.xantrex.com/products/product.asp?did=207). This explains it pretty well - check out the"User Guide".PDF file.

I was having problems with that www.bepmarine.com (http://www.bepmarine.com) website, but it looked like the VSR that you bought has to be hooked up to 3 switches? I was looking at the .PDF file for the installation instructions, and it looked like they had it hooked up to some isolators.

</div>


http://www.bajataco.com

[alanh]

I have a Hellroaring unit for a dual battery setup that has been sitting around for awhile now. I thought I had figured out how to fit a dual battery in the 4Runner, but it still needs some work and lots of other things keep getting in the way.

I planned to use one of their basic setups which basically has everything running off the main battery with the isolator charging a reserve battery used only when you need it for starting.I don't have a fridge or things that I want to keep on overnight, and was mainly thinking of a backup in case I leave something on accidentally. It's not too likely to happen out somewhere, but I don't want the future car computer or a CB/ham radio left on draining thebattery dead.I've left doors slightly open on my car in the garage for a few days and drained the battery so Ithought it would be bestif only one would be discharged by leaving accessories on when they shouldn't be.

I do have a winch, so my setup isn't optimal for that although the Hellroaring can parallel both batts for a limited time period at pretty high currents.

I think my planimplies that one gets along lastingsecondary battery so you can trust it or periodically testing it to make sure its still good. I was thinking of something like an Odyssey for a second batt., perhaps a slightly smaller one than the primary battery.

Alan

[transalper]

My main dilemma is still: Where can a spare battery be mounted in a 3rd gen 4runner?? I can't see any spare room under the hood (compressor and winch control box already take up all the "extra" space, which was not a lot to begin with). I would rather not loose the room in the cab.Mounting it underneath will expose itto road salt and mud.

So does anybody have some insightful mounting ideas for the 4runner? I would love to come up with something under the hood if at all possible . . .

http://pics.montypics.com/transalper/2004-03-12/1079097833_enginebay.jpg



Maybe if I shift the fuse box slightly, rotate the stock battery, relocate the radiator fluid overflow, and relocate the winch control box, then I could fit a spare battery next to the stock battery??? It's just that simple, right?
</div>

Jay - 97 4Runner
www.geocities.com/transalper/4runner (http://www.geocities.com/transalper/4runner)

Post Edited (transalper) : 3/12/2004 1:22:32 PM GMT

[BajaTaco]

I think I looked at rotating the stock battery, and putting another one beside it, and it was not do-able. Can't remember why off-hand, but I think it was because there still wan't enough clearance due to something (even with the fuse box moved) - maybe the contour of the fender? Or the alternator? I can't remember.

You could do it like I did, and put it where your compressor is - and scoot your cruise control actuator over. You would have to mount your compressor inside the cabin, but it will stay cleaner and run MUCH cooler in there anyway. I bet you could mount it upside down in one of your two side compartments under your cargo deck.


http://www.bajataco.com

[transalper]

I really like your set-up. But I don't think the second battery will fit in that spot in my rig - the ABS system takes up a lot of space there.

http://pics.montypics.com/transalper/2004-03-12/1079108671_enginebay_comp.jpg
</div>

Jay - 97 4Runner
www.geocities.com/transalper/4runner (http://www.geocities.com/transalper/4runner)

Post Edited (transalper) : 3/12/2004 4:20:25 PM GMT

[BajaTaco]

Ahhhh - yea. The ABS. bummer.

Well, it wouldn't be so bad to put it in a battery box inside your cargo deck would it? The plus is that it would stay a lot cooler.


http://www.bajataco.com

[MrS]

transalper said...
I am looking into a very simple system that uses a 200 amp relay and a marine-grade switch, like this:
If you mount itthat Baja way and use your set-up, you might what to make sure you can run 'oo' welding cable. I'm not 100% that would be big enough, because when I ran my cable from my stock battery to the one in my bed it took almost 20 ft of cable.



KF6YSB

[MrS]

[quote]

transalper said...
My main dilemma is still: Where can a spare battery be mounted in a 3rd gen 4runner?? I ..
So does anybody have some insightful mounting ideas for the 4runner? I would love to come up with something under the hood if at all possible . . .
I see from your pictures you have less room than us Taco guys. These ABS pumps are real room hogs, but some people like the ABS. Like Baja says, its a real plus to mount stuff away from the engin heat.

Is there any room to build a battery box infront of the passengers floorboard. On my Taco the exhust pipe runs near there. I'd think a small dry cell mounted at an angle might fit without taking any (much) GC or foot room.

You could mount both batteries next to each other in the back, but the farther from the alt. the worse it charges (line lose). You could go with a high output alt. but you might be paying (in gas) for power you don't use.

Like I said, everything has a downside http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/confused.gif

KF6YSB

[transalper]

I've got another idea. I do not want a battery permanently mounted in the cargo area, but I could live with it if it were removable. I wonder if I could set up a portabe spare battery unit that includes an isolator and quick disconnects? I already have one of these:
http://www.westmarine.com/images/full/50090681_f.jpg

It would be used primarly for running accessories and as an emergency starting battery (i would have to bring it around front and use jumper cables).

That way I could set it up for use in the runner and on my fishing boat.

Hmmmmm?
</div>

Jay - 97 4Runner
www.geocities.com/transalper/4runner (http://www.geocities.com/transalper/4runner)

[Tawayama]

Jay,

I have a third Optima blue-top that I have the quick-disconnects mounted on. I don't keep it in a battery box, but I do take it on trips from time-to-time (just in case right?).

There are quick disconnects available from Wrangler NW. They are identical to the ones sold by Warn. NAPA also sells a version that is similar but not identical.

Nice thing about having a portable battery w/quick disconnects is I can jump any truck I own with it. All of my trucks have the matching plugs hard-wired into the truck.

The battery box would be a nice idea if you were going to be throwing stuff on top of it in the back of a rig. I think it's something worth pursuing actually.

Michael Slade
Tawàyama Safaris Inc.
http://www.tawayama.com

[alanh]

Warning, this is pretty longwinded.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/sleeping.gif </div>
Transalper,</div>
Yes, I can see that winch controller is a problem where it is. Mine is "temporarily" behind the bumper near the winch motor, but that isn't a very good spot if you go through water. I'd like to move it up higher and also would like to put the compressor over near the ABS electronics. Many years ago, a friend at work had a huge old Pontiac and heused to joke about almost being able to walk around in the engine compartment.We sure could use some of that room.</div>
Ithought I might end up repackaging the winch controller because it's kind of a cheap design anyway and the location of theconnector for the control is not in a good spot.There is also a company called Albright that makes somesolenoids that might be more compact and more robustas well. I alsosaw a really nifty sounding motor controller for electriccars thatwas rated for something like 400A. It had all sortsof features including a computer interface that could monitor things like motor currentand make some settings(really appeals to the gadget freak in me - I can see it now "I'll be ready to winch just as soon as I start the computer so I can play with the monitor functions.") and would even give variable speed if its compatible with the motor on the Warn winches. Don't know how practical it would be, but an interesting idea. Just another way to spend money!</div>
As I recall, the problems with trying to fit 2 batteries in where the stock one ison my 3rd gen 4Runner are:</div>
1) Need to relocate washer bottle -there are lots of aftermarket units, butIdidn'tsee an obvious spot and wasn't sure if I had to keep it at the same height as the old one or not.</div>
2) Onemightuse some of the space under the fender where it kind of overhangs on the inside with asmaller battery, but there is a resistor there for the daylight running lights that needs to be moved - I don't know how hot it gets, but probably not a good idea to risk melting the battery case</div>
3) If you squeeze a battery up against the bodywork that runs alongabout in line with the radiator(where the hood latch is, etc.) you'reputting things right behindthe headlight. Changing a bulb requires removing the batt. then. Don't know if there is anyheat issue withthat close fit.</div>
4) Everyscheme I came up with overhung the regular bracket in the direction of the radiator, cutting down on space toget to alternator,dipstick, etc. I think one would need to build a bracket to supportthe end of the battery"shelf" with mounting pointsprobably not far from the airbag sensor which I was unsure about attempting. Maybe this isn't a problem or anothermounting scheme could be devised.</div>
5) Istartedlooking at the Odyssey batteriesthat seemed to be fairly small with the idea of getting onewith enough capacity to start the engine with a dead main battery.This probably wouldn't workfor someone looking to power anadditional load like a fridge.</div>
If there was a good alternative to that big box with the air filter in it, that might be a possibility. I'd have to check some pictures of the K &amp; N filter setup to see how much if any space that gains. I've heard they don't actually filter that well, but there another outfit mentioned on one of the forums (bad memory - don't remember which even though it wasn't that long ago) that had a similar system and I think better filter performance.</div>
I'm not wild about any battery in the back of the 4Runner, but usingone for an aux. loadinthe back of a pickupwould be easier than as an additional starting battery. Your cables only need to be large enough to handlebattery charging currentplus the current of whatever you're poweringwhich is better than trying to supplystarting motor current or extra winch motor current.</div>


Alan

[JackSilb]

Hello,

On the removable side, you can just go with the starter pack that has an Odyssey battery on it. These puppies can give you all the juice you want to start you rig in case you run your battery down. That seems the primary reason you are taking the removable battery along.

On the 4Runner, I believe the best deal is to get as much power density as you can, an Odyssey battery. It has been working great on my Runner. I have a freezer, two Ham Radios, lots of lights. The freezer stays on all the time on refrigeration mode, almost too cold to drink if such a thing exist. When I have the engine running and all the lights on, My lights don't blink when I honk. It used to do that with the Optima Red top. I have a air horn power by a on-demand compressor. I leave my radios on all day too.

I am not even carrying my power pack with me these days since I have been going out with the group.

-JACK


So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

[JackSilb]

From Jack's TLC discussion


- Ordered the Odyssey PC 1700 battery.

Jack, why don't you go with a dual battery system?

Another good question. You are smart.

Basically I don't want to mess with this now. I have seen too many problems with dual battery systems. It is not just plug and play.

Jack, but you would add reliability. Go for it.

Lets not mix reliability with redundancy.A system can be reduntant but not reliable. A system can be very reliable but not redundant.

This battery is like "mill spec".http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/ignore.gif Lets not talk much so it doe not fail on me.

Moreover, I have enough juice on this battery to run my toys and the freezer.



So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

[JackSilb]

From Jack's TLC discussion


Let me get these in parts:

> I am however curious as to more of your reasons why you don't want a dual battery set-up.

Lets imagine that I have some background in reliability.Lets sayin machines different from cars. But basically, the rule is that each component that you add you multiply the probability of failure. Sure, series andparallel (//) is abit different but lets keep it simple here.


People believe that by adding things in // they add to the reliability. But actually, your system will be as reliable as the most reliable component not more than that. What you gain by adding a spare or hot swap, is fault tolerance. If you compute the probability of failures of wiring, connectors,switches, etc., you have lots that can go wrong.

Simple ex: You may have 3 not so good components in // in a system and have 1 very good quality component in another system. Which one is more reliable? Probably the single component. Which one is fault tolerant? Probably the 3 // if done well. Which one has the highest probability to see a failure, the ones with 3 not so good components.

Does this make sense to you all?

If fault tolerance is what you want in you rig, then go for the dual battery. But if you have enough juice on a single battery to power your tools and toys, then no need for a second set, right? At this point I don't need more power than a Odyssey PC 1700 can give to me.

KISS - Keep it Simple Stupid will be my approach on this TLC.
The PC 1700 uses a technology that is applied in high reliability transports. It can do deep cycle too. So I will not damage it if one day I run it flat.


http://www.odysseyfactory.com/specs.htm



Thanks,
-JACK









So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net


Post Edited (JackSilb) : 7/5/2004 11:14:51 AM (GMT-8)

[JackSilb]

From Jack's TLC Thread
Good discussions Jack - I too have experience in equipment reliability and you are dead on. We had a big wave of installing dual haz gas detectors a few years ago - in a voting system. 2 heads had to register a high gas level before a system shut down would occur. The plan was to eliminate false alarms from the crappy catalytic detector heads. The result was twice as many instruments, and twice as much maintenance cost/failures. We changed to an IR detector and 99% of the maintenance cost and failures went away. Moral of the story - get better equipment, not just more of the same crap.

Back to your dual batteries - I've had 3 vehicles with dual batteries. They had a few different systems for isolation. The electronic isolators work pretty good for balancing charging but fail unexpectedly. The relay type are simple and easy to troubleshoot but they don't balance charging and you boil one battery all the time. Every system, regardless of type, is a PITA! I replaced a bettery every year, sometimes more often. I had just as many starting problems, and maintenance cost was way higher. Plus it adds complexity, and weight. I am now a firm beleiver in running a good quality high amp battery, and a high amp alternator. I've only replaced 1 battery in the last 8 years since changing back to just one battery. I went dual batteries because all these rigs had winches and 150 watt 2-way FM radios in them - the only time I had a problem after going back to single was when I left the radio on over a week without running the vehicle.

The only way I would consider going dual again is if I also went dual alternators and had 2 completely seperate systems.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I can fix that!





So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net


Post Edited (JackSilb) : 7/5/2004 11:14:38 AM (GMT-8)

[JackSilb]

From Jack's TLC Thread

Couple things to add.... one, on the whole machine reliability thing. That is something that is a major problem with the company I just started working for. Traditionally their maintenance plan has been redundant machinery. If one goes down, there is a spare machine or two that can be used until the other one is fixed. That is something that is going to change though... our RVP says we only get ONE 2 Million dollar coating machine.... guess we better get to work on those maintenance schedules!
On the dual battery thing.... there has got to be a way to make it work reliably. My new truck has a dual battery system from the factory which is quite common on full size vehicles and I believe standard on Diesel trucks now. From my understanding, it is still a 12 volt system and is as reliable as a factory single battery system. I have no idea how it works or how it is wired, but this discussion has piqued my curiousity.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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'Paved Roads: Another example of wasteful government spending.' KD7UEH

Post Edited (Rockcrawler) : 6/25/2004 3:12:07 AM GMT


So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

[JackSilb]

JackSilb said...
Let me post something here so we get Uwe's mod list back to the first page.
Front SteveS

[/quote]I'm wondering why? Maybe I'm missing something here.


Wouldn't it be better if this was under a battery topic? I know we can do a battery 'search' but if 90% of the 'battery talk' was be under a 'battery topic' instead of the battery talk under each persons truck. Kinda like keeping all the battery info i one spot instead of many.

That is good useful info about Uwes radio resetting, battery can cause strange things to happen. My 1st thought would have been"something's wrong with my NEW radio"http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/headscratch.gif

Maybe we could do that with other things, tires, radios, etc.

I'm not looking to change things around here, just wondering http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/notme.gif

BTW, don't ever change, we love you the way you are!http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/guitar.gif

Notice how I used Emoticons?




No need to applaud, just throw money.








So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

[Ramdough]

I need some quik advise. I have a red top starter battery, and I have a group 31 Blue top deep cycle battery (same as Baja's, but has both SAE and screw terminals) (Sam's Club $150 ....in case you are wondering).

I am mounting the battery in a custom battery tray mounted in the front of my bed of my truck under my future deck.

I have room for another battery or a large compressor. I need to buy my battery issolator soon.

Should I buy the three battery issolator and plan on having tree batteries or skip the 65lbs/75Ah of extra battery?

I will eventually have a freeze fridge or ARB....and other stuff, but the fridge (and maybe HF/2m Ham) will be the main things running while the engine is off.

Each battery is:
75 Ah.
65 lbs
takes up space
only really needed if sitting for a while.

Advise please.

[BajaTaco]

Sorry I didn't reply sooner. If you do long-term camping where you will be parked for more than 3 or 4 days at a time, and if you have a way to mount the 3rd battery so that it is fairly easily removed, then I would seriously consider adding it to the system. The reason being that the Optimas are only 75 amp hour batteries, and depending on what size/type of fridge you end up with, and what kind of other accessories you plan to run while parked, you will have less chance of running flat while you are camping. I think itwould be a cheaper alternative to solar or other means of recharging. If you can easily remove it, then you can keep it charged up at your house, and only load it up for trips where you know you will be camped for a long time. You could set up some cables and connectors that would allow you to connect the 3rd battery to the blue optima in parallel (so you still have 12V output, but twice the amp hour capacity).

However, if you only stop for 2-3 days at a time at the most, then you probably don't need to mess with the extra cost and weight.

Anybody else care to add... ?


BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[Ramdough]

Good points,


I was deciding on wheather or not to get a 3 or 2 battery issolator. From what you say, you are recomending a dual with the 2-3 batteries in parallel over a triple issolator. Right?


I don't know that I would actually want to heft the 65 lbs into the mounting location I picked......I alslo would have to disassemble my deck a little to pull them out.


I should model my deck to show everyone, but I just haven't had time yet. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/smashfreakb.gif

[BajaTaco]

Ramdough said...


I was deciding on wheather or not to get a 3 or 2 battery issolator. From what you say, you are recomending a dual with the 2-3 batteries in parallel over a triple issolator. Right?



That is correct. Since youwould beusing two of the batteries to power the same circuits (auxiliary power) I see no reason to isolate the 3rd battery from the 2nd one.


Regarding what you said about the accessibility to remove the 3rd battery, I would be hesitant to add the 3rd battery as a full-time component of your GVWR. You probably won't use it enough to justify the additional weight (but I am just guessing - I don't know how often you would really need it - you have to judge that one). Since you don'treally need a 3-wayisolator, you could always add the 3rd battery in the future is you see a need for it.


BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[BajaXplorer]

Chris, and you other dual battery experts out there, I could use some advice/help. Recently picked up a used ARB Fridge/Freeze (42Qt) and need some input.
I will have to carry it in the snugtop, no room in cab. Putting in a 12v accessory outlet to run it off of when driving, and plan to use a second battery in the rear for camping trips. Let me preface the following questions with, I am very lame about auto electrical stuff.
1. Is it possible to run the ARB when parked overnight (10-12 hrs) on the starter battery when your traveling? I have no idea how fast it pulls down a battery at 2-3 amp draw (whatever that is).
2. What would be required to run from alternator or primary battery to charge the secondary battery I would carry in the back for the fridge? Just looking for some simple way to charge it back up after a few days camping.
My primary battery is an Optima red top 34r 3 months old. Secondary will probably be a blue top that Costco has.
Have been reading and I understand that you should not drain a battery below 12.0v (100% discharge). Since they only start full at less than 13v, it does not seem that there is much to draw upon (scratching my head).
BX

Post Edited (BajaXplorer) : 8/10/2004 1:35:22 PM (GMT-8)

[BajaTaco]

BX, here is my .02...


1. Yes, very possible but I wouldn't recommend it. If your starting battery is in very good condition and numerous variables are just right with your fridge, you will have no problem. However, if something goes wrong with your calculations, you might end up with not quite enough juice to turn it over. I would at least carry a jump-start pack if you are going to do this, or make sure you are camped where someone can give you a jump in the morning. For how easy it would be to carry some extra power, I just don't think it's worth it. Having said that, I will tell you that I always shut the fridge completely off when we go to bed. It usually cools off enough at night, combined with the fact that you never open the fridge, and add some insulation (blankets, whatever) if need be (if it's warm outside), and it will stay cold overnight with no power.


2. Just get a 12V cigarette lighter adapter cord, and add a pair of alligator clips to the leads opposite the lighter plug. Plug it into your accessory outlet with the clips on the battery terminals and charge while you are driving.


Regarding the discharge, I am not sure what you were reading, but it is my understanding that 12V is definitely not 100% discharge. 10.4V is more like it (http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Battery%20Voltages).


BTW, congrats on your new purchase!!! http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/beertoast.gif


BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[blupaddler]

not hijack things...where did you get the fridge and how much? (if you don't mind)


WHERE 2 NEXT</font>




robb

[BajaXplorer]

Thanks for the info, Chris. I never thought about unplugging for the night (duh). That would reduce my fridge running time to 4 or 5 hours after stopping the truck. That does not seem like it would draw my battery down enough to be concerned about (even though it is a starter, not deep cycle type).
I seldom stop for more than one night is why I'm leaning towards this setup. Even if we stay at the same place we are up and running around in the truck each day.
I did not understand your #2 suggestion. Does it mean that if I have installed a 12v accessory outlet in the rear for the fridge, it can also be used to charge a secondary battery by simply hooking it up to the outlet as you describe with a lighter plug-in adaptor? After the truck is running I assume, or it would probably pull the juice off the starter battery (correct?).
I have been looking at the Sure Power multi-battery isolator and enough 8awg wire to reach the truck bed to set up a recharge station for a deep cycle battery that would only be carried on occasional basis. If we are going to carry a jump-pack, we may as well have a deep cycle battery given the weight and space consumed by either one.
Re-read some of the material and see that I misunderstood how the battery is drawn down. Appears that 50% is around 12.0v and 100% is around 10.5v. So if I install a deep cycle Optima D31M with 75ah as the main battery, the fridge can draw off just under 50% or 36ah which equate to 12 hours @ 3ah draw, and the battery would be at about 12.0v and be able to start the truck. Is this reasoning correct?? I still have no idea how much voltage, amps or whatever it takes to start the engine.
I have learned tons from this site http://uuhome.de/william.darden/carfaq.htm
</o:p>
Blupaddler, picked up the fridge used for $500 from local offroad shop, 4 Wheeler Supply. They are putting 4.88s in my truck and the owner just happened to have the fridge for sale when I was there. I don't know if that is a good price or not, but it was not used much and looked new (and he guaranteed it). One of those impulse buys I'm afraid (LOL).
BX

[BajaTaco]

"Re-read some of the material and see that I misunderstood how the battery is drawn down. Appears that 50% is around 12.0v and 100% is around 10.5v. So if I install a deep cycle Optima D31M with 75ah as the main battery, the fridge can draw off just under 50% or 36ah which equate to 12 hours @ 3ah draw, and the battery would be at about 12.0v and be able to start the truck. Is this reasoning correct?? I still have no idea how much voltage, amps or whatever it takes to start the engine."

BX, from what I have read, a starter only needs 9.6 volts to crank... but I am not sure if this is realistic or not. I would think with 12V you would be fine. Also, a 3ah draw would be 3 amps continuous per hour. Your fridge will actually be less than that, as it will only be drawing power when it is actually running (thermostat maintains temp, so it doesn't need to run constantly). I just looked up some info that I have, and based on a fridge comparo that Australian 4wd monthly did, the 42 litre ARB/Engel fridge averages 1.6Ah over a 24 hour period (assuming it is on for 24 hours). Yours will no doubt be a bit above average since you do a lot of desert travel.

Regarding question #2, yes - you would just hook the aux. battery up to the vehicles elec. system and it will charge back up. However, it could take a fair amount of time depending on how much charge it needs. You are correct - this charging will take place when the vehicle is running and the alternator is supplying power. If you do it without the engine running,the drained batterywill want to equalize with your starter battery via the 12v elec. circuit (not good).

Yea, if you are going to put an extra battery in the truck anyway, a SurePowerisolator sure is a simple way to make it automatic and foolproof. You wouldn't have to remember to hook up the aux. battery for charging, or worry about draining your starter battery.

Another thing to consider, is that if you were to use your current red-top (starter batt.) as power for the fridge, it won't last as long (overall battery life)since you will be fluxuating the state of charge so much on a regular basis. A deep cycle (as you suggested with the D31M) would be more appropriate if you want to run the fridge from the starter battery.





BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[BajaXplorer]

Really appreciate the input, thank you.


Tried the unplugging of fridge last night. Had it about half full and down to 28 degrees when I unplugged it at 8PM in a room that maintained about78 degrees overnight. This morning at 6AMwhen I plugged it back in it was at 40 degrees. Not bad at all! Tonight I will try the same thing with some additional insulation (moving pad) in the garage which is about 110 at 8PM and 95 at 6AM.


BX

[BajaTaco]

BajaXplorer said...




Really appreciate the input, thank you.


Tried the unplugging of fridge last night. Had it about half full and down to 28 degrees when I unplugged it at 8PM in a room that maintained about78 degrees overnight. This morning at 6AMwhen I plugged it back in it was at 40 degrees. Not bad at all! Tonight I will try the same thing with some additional insulation (moving pad) in the garage which is about 110 at 8PM and 95 at 6AM.


BX
You are welcome. Your bench testing is valuable info. I am going to copy it to the Fridge/Freeze thread. Please follow up there and let us know what kind of results your expirimentaion yields.


BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[Blackdogimages]

I'm new to the forum and am needing some great advice. I have a 2004 Hummer H2 Adventure model and am building for long off-road journeys thru the NW USA! My most recent problem is battery drain due to new Engel 45 and Hella 4000 pair purchase. I've already drained the stock battery once and don't want to do it again. I plan to leave the fridge on at all times and have been searching for dual battery set up for H2. The only one I have found is from WranglerNW and uses 2 Odyssey 1200T batteries. After checking with the company these are the only batteries that it can use due to space? Does anybody have experience with these batteries and or the set up for the H2. i just can't believe that with all the new H2's on the market that nobody else makes a dual battery setup for them. I guess the soccer moms don't use a winch or lights much!???
thanks in advance for your help.

Ben Edmonson
blackdogimages.com
Charlotte, NC

[GoodTimes]

My advice, sell it and buy a jeep! HA!

Just kidding.....seriously, if there are no aftermarket 'kits' out there that fit your needs, build your own. Really, all that those kits are is someone else doing the homework, assembling a simple wiring harness, and dropping a couple of batteries in. You can do it yourself, and buy batteries that fit in your space requirements. If I were in your shoes, I would use the stock battery for engine starting, and find a spot to mount a small oddesy somewhere. If you need help choosing what components, and mounting configurations, etc., there are quite a few people here that can offer first hand advice.


olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

[BajaXplorer]

I think you may beover amping (pun intended). I would have to agree with GT. Use the stock battery for starting, and probably the Hellas as well since you would normally only use them while driving and the alternator should supply them and maintain your main battery (unless your running a whole bunch of them). And for the fridge/freeze, a second battery of the deep cycle type connected through an isolater to the alternator would take care of it. My experience with an ARB (Engel) fridge/freeze has been that turning it off in the evening and turning it back on in the morning only causes it to warm up 6 to 10 degrees depending on the ambient temp. Recent trip to Colorado we turned it off at 7 or 8 at night and turned it on at 7 or 8 in morning and it went from 28 to 34 degrees.We have a single Optima deep cycle battery for our main and aux needs and when I tested running the fridge/freeze24 hourswithout turning it off the battery dropped from 12.6 to 12.4. We seldom stop or campwhere we aren't using the vehicle each day and recharge the battery. Thats why my Optima starting battery and isolator are still sitting in the garage (LOL). I used a multimeter to check the battery frequently under different usesso I would know how it operates and what it's state of charge would be in any of our particular types of use.
Here is some great info to help you figure out what you want to do and make an informed decision. Just remember you cannot draw down your stock battery for the fridge/freeze and recharge it the same as a deep cycle because it is not designed for that purpose and you will kill it.
http://uuhome.de/william.darden/batlinks.htm
http://www.marine-electronics.net/techarticle/battery_faq/b_faq.htm
BX

[JackSilb]

Ben,

Welcome. Good to have you here.

> i just can't believe that with all the new H's on the market that nobody else makes a dual battery setup for them. I guess the soccer moms
> don't use a winch or lights much!???
> thanks in advance for your help.

Demand and time in the market explains that. Actually, there aren't many dual battery setups out there. So don't feel bad you can't find a plug and play solution for your application.
We will help you build your own. Then you can post on the Hummer site as a pioneer.

Talk to us a bit more about your problem. It just happens overnight? It happens when you have all the lights on? Have you checked to see if you main battery is good? After two full discharge it is probably going bad already.
How is your alternator going? Is it 120+A? You can get good alternators that will give you lots of power while your engine is running.

> Odyssey 1200T
> Does anybody have experience with these batteries

Yes, I have good experience with this brand. I have odyssey batteries on both of my trucks. I run my freezer all the time in refigerator range (1.5~2.5 setting), ham radios, toys, and 100W x2 lights when needed. I have the 1700T.Odysseyhad on their sitea new model with even more capacity.

Last time I checked, these batteries have the most power density you can by on the consumer market <$200.00. + they are like a deep cycle too. You will not damage them if you get them flat for dozens of times.

Depending on how much time you have I would go with the 1700T or big sister for a start. That is the easiest, reliable, fast way to get you going for this trip. Then deal with the dual battery scheme when you have time.

Ifyou have time, then still would go with the Odyssey as you main battery and build the second battery around it. The optima scheme people discussed above will do the job but will require re-wiring and some play time. Lots of time to make sure it is reliable.

-JACK








So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net


Post Edited (JackSilb) : 10/6/2004 2:50:44 PM (GMT-8)

[JackSilb]

From http://www.odysseybatteries.com/

2 or 3 year full warranty
12 year military design
Drycell sealed technology
60% more cranking power
Deep cycle design
Mount in any position - any place
Brass terminals, non-corrosive
Steel jacket for severe use

The ODYSSEY® Drycell battery combines in one box the characteristics of two separate batteries. It can deep cycle as well as provide enormous cranking power.

These dry cell batteries are capable of providing engine cranking pulses in excess of 1700A for 5 seconds as well as 400 charge/discharge cycles to 100% depth of discharge (DOD). A typical starting, lighting and ignition (SLI) battery can do one or the other, but not both. Conventional batteries are either a sprinter or a long distance runner; An ODYSSEY® battery will do both — provide short duration high amperage pulse or low rate long duration drains.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Guaranteed longer service life - The ODYSSEY® battery, with a ten year design life and a three-to-eight year service life, saves you time and money because you do not have to replace your battery as often. It is also the ONLY battery that is capable of delivering a large number of deep cycles - up to 400 when fully discharged or up to 500 when discharged to 80%.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/ok-kewl.gif
Plus, the battery is specially designed for high vibration applications.
Longer storage life - Unlike conventional batteries that need to be recharged every six to twelve weeks, the ODYSSEY® battery, when fully charged , can be stored for up to 2 years at room temperature (25°C, 77°F). At lower temperatures, storage times will be even longer.

Overdischarge/deep discharge recovery - The ease with which the ODYSSEY® battery recovers from this type of application abuse is unheard of. Should ODYSSEY® become deeply discharged, simply recharge following instructions in the ODYSSEY® Owners Manual.

Superior cranking and fast recharge capability - The 5 second











So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net


Post Edited (JackSilb) : 10/6/2004 2:52:39 PM (GMT-8)

[JackSilb]

Here is mine and what you should consider getting as your main battery and the base for your dual system

PC 1700 (shown with metal jacket and terminals)
1700 cranking amps http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/supercool.gif
156 minute reserve capacity with 25amp load http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/yeah.gif

Dimensions: inches (mm)
width 6.62 (168.2)
length (terminal side) 13.02 (330.7)
height* 6.93 (176.0)
Weight 60.9 lbs / 27.6 kg http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/rolleyes.gif


~ $200.00


So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net


Post Edited (JackSilb) : 10/6/2004 2:46:21 PM (GMT-8)

[JackSilb]

http://www.odysseyfactory.com/PC2150_Intro.htm

Found the bit syster info. I am not sure you can by these yet. But you may use it in the future for the dual setup.

The 1700 can get you going in no time, assuming your alternator is up for the job you have for it while driving with all the lights on.

-JACK






WWW said...
The new 12-volt ODYSSEY PC 2150 Group 31 battery performance specifications include cold cranking amps (CCA) of 1,090 A at 0oF (-18oC), cranking amps (CA/MCA) of 1,370 A at 32oF (0oC), and hot cranking amps (HCA) of 1,545 A at 80oF (27oC). The five second cold and hot cranking amp rates are 1,500 A at 0oF (-18oC) and 2,150 A at 80oF (27oC). The battery features a reserve capacity of 200 minutes, and a deep cycle capability of 400 cycles at 80% depth of discharge (DOD).
The battery weighs 75 lbs. (34 kg), is 13.0" L x 6.8" W x 9.4" H (330.2 mm x 172.7 mm x 238.8 mm), and comes standard with 3/8" (9.5 mm) corrosion-free stud terminals, a suitcase lifting handle, and an oil resistant plastic container and cover.
The new ODYSSEY PC2150 has a MSRP (manufacturer's suggested retail price) $294.95, but check your local dealer - distributor for local pricing.






So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net


Post Edited (JackSilb) : 10/6/2004 2:59:09 PM (GMT-8)

[Blackdogimages]

Thanks for all the advice, and so quickly! It's nice to have a forum for people who can communicate real world off-roading issues, not just talk about them! /forum/emoticons/beertoast.gif
I think for the short term I'm going to try and locate a Odyssey 1700 like Jack suggested and see how this works for me. I'm only using 2 Hella 4000's for night driving at the currenty time so I don't think that this is that big of a deal, surely the Hummer's altenator can handle this. It's just the Engel 45 being able to run 24/7 and not worry about it when I'm deep in nowhere Montana. I should also try turning it off at night and back on in the morning to save power also.
Once installed I will let everybody know how this battery works for me.
Cheers,

Ben Edmonson
blackdogimages.com
Charlotte, NC

[JackSilb]

Ben,

How are you doing on getting THE Cool battery?

Need help to find one? Mines were delivered at home. Not very expensive. I can try to dig the shop information. I believe I just did a search on the web for the best price including shipping at that time.

You should OK leaving your freezer on at night in the setting 1. It will keep all cold. In fact, I don't recall running mine above 1.5 or so. The drinks get almost too cold for holding. This will have to be a try experience for you since each freezer and application will be different.

One word of advise, take a jump start cable with you all the time and a jump start pack (Power Pack). I have used mines to help others, but I may need them one day to help me get the TLC going. These are very inexpensive insurance. Harry L. from http:///www.eco4wd.com has good articles on performance of power packs. I got the one that I don't need to charge it for 6 months or so. Solar, can't remember the model now.

Please keep us posted and send us some pictures.
-JACK





So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

[transalper]

This has probably been discussed before, but why can't one of these jump start power packs be used as the primary power source for a portable fridge? It seems so simple. Why don't more folks go thisrouterather than a dual battery system?
http://www.toolking.com/images/products/bigCLJNC660.jpg[/url]

Jay - [url="http://www.geocities.com/transalper/4runner"]97 4Runner (http://www.toolking.com/images/products/bigCLJNC660.jpg)
St. Paul, Minnesota

[BajaTaco]

Yes, I think one of those battery packs would work fine for running a fridge. Definitely simple and easy.


However, I chose a dual battery system for the following reasons:

Permanent installation - always available, always on
Allows for use of multiple accessories to be run from an aux. battery, andthe benefit of the alternator's power when the engine is running. This is probably the main reason for having a dual batt. setup. You can just run more stuff and not worry about high fluxuations with your starting battery's state-of-charge.
Charging is automatic and often - whenever the alternator is running
Allows a "renewable" energy source for extended trips. The aux. battery automatically gets charged whenever the truck is being driven. A battery pack would have to be manually recharged.
Mounting location - a battery pack would need to find a suitable, safe home somewhere in the vehicle that is convenient to frequent connecting and disconnecting. This could possibly be an inefficient use of space in a smaller vehicle. (I know it wouldn't work well in my Tacoma with my particular setup).


BTW, Ben - I really enjoyed surfing your website. Very nice photos and a neat layout. Welcome to the forum.


BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

Post Edited (BajaTaco) : 10/13/2004 1:45:00 PM (GMT-8)

[JackSilb]

> This has probably been discussed before, but why can't one of these jump start power packs be used as the primary power source
> for a portable fridge? It seems so simple. Why don't more folks go this route rather than a dual battery system?

Good question.

Besides what BajaTaco said so well, this power pack would lot last longer powering a freezer. It was not designed to be charged and discharged that many times. It is suppose to be kept if full charge and be charged again after being used. Besides that, I am not sure how long it can power the freezer.

-JACK


So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

[BajaTaco]

By request from someone who I have recently been corresponding with via email, I am going to post some info regarding the installation of a SurePower islolator in a 98-04 Toyota Tacoma (should work for other years as well).


According to the SurePower application guide (http://www.surepower.com/pdf/isolatorguide.pdf), the required model is a 9523A. This unit is rated for up to 95 amps. I believe the stock Tacoma alternator is only rated at 75 amps, but in any case is no more than 90 amps.


The installation is pretty straight-forward and simple. You will need to make a list of items that you will need to make all of the necessary connections. I have not installed this particular isolator system myself, but it looks like you will need the following:


Materials

50 amp circuit breaker
6 amp circuit breaker
4 to 8 gauge wire depending on the length (see chart here (http://www.surepower.com/pdf/180012n.pdf))
Automotive grade wire - same size as wires connected to your alternator (my guess is 14-16 gauge)
Ring terminals - verify size of studs on isolator - probably 1/4"
Butt connectors - if necessary to extend wires from alternator to isolator
(1) splice connector (verify gauge) for the excitation wire - labeled as "IGN" on the alternator.
Terminal boots (rubber caps that go on the isolator terminal connections)
Shrink tube to seal up any butt connectors and ring connectors.


Tools

Phillips head screwdriver
Drill with 1/8" bit (formounting isolator)
Wire crimper/stripper
open-end wrench set
Nut driver set
Center punch - probably wouldn't hurt for centering your drill marks when you mount the isolator.
Hot air blower or Bic lighter to heat shrink tube


I am not going to write all of the installation instructions, because SurePower has already done that. CLICK HERE (http://www.surepower.com/pdf/180012n.pdf). In a nutshell, you will just need to disconnect your original battery (negative wires first), then mount your isolator as close as you can to the alternator. Then you will disconnect some of the wires from your alternator, and reconnect them to the isolator as shown. There are four connection terminals atthe isolator - #1 alternator wires #2 excitation wire (also from alternator) #3 Pos. cable from main batt. #4 Pos. cable from aux. batt.


MrS here on the forum has been using this setup for years on his Tacoma. If you have questions, I am sure he will help you out. His email is posted on the 1st page of this thread.



BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[BajaTaco]

On a related, but separate note, SurePower has just updated their website, and they have a really nice document that explains dual/multiple battery systems very well. For anyone who is just getting started and would like to understand the basic principles of an aux. battery system, I highly recommend readingthis articlefrom SurePower

Introduction to Batteries and Charging systems (http://www.surepower.com/pdf/ebr_int.pdf)


BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[jnelson4x4taco]

Thanks for the information bajataco, that really clears up alot of the questions i had about a dual battery setup. What are the other mods you need to do to fit 2 batteries in the engine bay? it looks like there is alot inthe way but i have seen itdone before.

[BajaTaco]

Hi Jeff! Glad you made it to the forum. Welcome.


Well, do you have ABS and/or cruise controlon your truck? Depending on those, you can mount it on the pass. side fender. Other possibilites may be where the stock air box and washer bottle are located, but would require some kind of solution for the air intake. I checked to see if it would be possible to mount (2) regular sized batteries in the location of the stock one. Depending on what various sizes may be available, I think this is a possibility. I'm fairly certain it won't work with Optimas, without relocating the OEM fuse box and doing some sheetmetal work. Another option is just to mount it in the cargo area (bed)or underneath the truck.



BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[jnelson4x4taco]

I do have ABS and CC, it looks lie i would need to relocate the resevoir bottle for the radiator and possibly the fusebox. I dont think it would be difficult to relocate that bottle but the fusebox would be a little trickier. My brother put dual batteries on his jeep but did not use an isolator, he wired them inline so its like one HUGE battery. Im not sure about his methods but so far it has worked ok. Ill let you guys know what i plan on running and you can let me know if you think i will need 2 batteries. There will be 3 sets of 100w KC's and some small utility lights (55w) around the roofrack for some extra light around the campsite and for trails. If that is too much for 1 battery or if 1 optima would do it thenthat would be great but otherwise it looks like im goin dual.

[914Runner's Son]

I just noticed this, but Sure Power is just down the road from me (about 10 mins)!

I might have to stop by one day and talk with them.

Hoping to have a White or Green '93 - '97 FZJ-80 (with lockers) sitting in the driveway soon!

Dads (mine too!) - 1991 Toyota 4Runner 4 Door, 3.4l 5VZ-FE Engine Swap, R150F 5-Speed Manual, 4WD, 32's, 4.10's
My Rig (http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=21999)

[alanh]

In my 2K 4runner, I managed to fit an Optima yellowtop and a Lifeline GPL-1400T in the stock battery location. I had a custom battery holder made, and relocated the coolant overflow bottle so it hangs on the end of the battery holder close to where it was. I cut and fitted a new holddown bracket and had it welded for me at the place that bent the sheetmetal for the holder.

The GPL-1400 has 550A at 0 degrees F and its pretty short and narrow. I looked quite a bit and it was the only thing that I could find that would give enough room with the Optima and not require completely relocating the coolant overflow. Its short enough to fit under a bit of the fender overhang inside the hood. You'll have to remove the batteries to change the headlight bulb though. Given a fresh start, I might choose something other than the Optima for the main batt. which might give more options.

I haven't tried it at 0F, but I know its enough to start the 4Runner with my Hellroaring isolator paralleling the main battery when I unintentionally let the main one discharge enough it wouldn't start otherwise.

Alan
KE7AXC
2000 4Runner

[MrS]

transalper said...
......but why can't one of these jump start power packs be used as the primary power source for a portable fridge? It seems so simple. Why don't more folks go thisrouterather than a dual battery system?
http://www.toolking.com/images/products/bigCLJNC660.jpg





Basicly using one of those iswhat we do. If you open that unit up you will find a non-flooded-cell deep-cyclebattery.

Those type units would work, but have alot of limits that I would find them almost unuseable.

One big item is the amps those small batteries store. Then you have to deal with the recharge rate,and how you would recharge it for later use along the trail.

Basicly it would work, but after the discharge, and the recharge, the unit would be taxed to it's limit and not be a long service choice like the dual battery set-ups posted here.

That help?

I would also like to note that for our type of travel in the back-country, one of those should be in the vehicle. I've been using them for years and find them VERY handy. You do need to keep and eye on them so they are ready for use.

At least Ford circles the problem.

[MrS]

[quote]

BajaTaco said...



MrS here on the forum has been using this setup for years on his Tacoma. If you have questions, I am sure he will help you out.



Like Baja said, feel free to contact me if you have Qs.





I'd also like to add that VikingVince should have some good input about what is needed and where to get it to do this project. He has a handy little cable crimper, that seemed to work very good and was not too much $s.







At least Ford circles the problem.

[MrS]

jnelson4x4taco said...
......, that really clears up alot of the questions i had about a dual battery setup. ....Hi, and welcome aboard. My WAG is you are the Bajas friend Jeff.

Whats you plan for the 2nd battery? Your set-up should be based on how you want to use the battery.

At least Ford circles the problem.

[BajaTaco]

MrS said...
Whats you plan for the 2nd battery? Your set-up should be based on how you want to use the battery.



jnelson4x4taco said...
There will be 3 sets of 100w KC's and some small utility lights (55w) around the roofrack for some extra light around the campsite and for trails.Looks like he is just planning on the lights at this point in time. Three pairs of 100w KC's ends up being 50 amps. Considering the other stuff the original battery has to do (start the vehicle, run the headlamps/tail lamps, stereo, etc) I think the main battery will last longer if you use an aux. battery to provide the 50 amps for those lights, plus any other accessories that you might end up with (like a 2-meter radioand/or a fridge http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif). If you were to use a deep cycle battery that has a good CCA (like the yellow-top or similar) then you would probably be fine with just one battery. (note that you wouldn't really want to use those 55w aux. lights at camp very much with the vehicle engine off and only one battery though).


BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[MrS]

BajaTaco said...



jnelson4x4taco said...
There will be 3 sets of 100w KC's and .....Looks like he is just planning on the lights at this point in time. Three pairs of 100w KC's ends up being 50 amps. [/quote]Thanks Baja, I guess I needed to look twice at ALL the postings. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/blush.gif

This is just a guess on my part, BUT 50+ amps worth of lights is a big task.IMO you need to think about a hi-output alternator.

I'm NOT known as someone who plays around with camp lighting, but I would think 600 watts is not needed very often. Since the KC's will be some for driving, the engine will be running. Then around camp use a battery pack (like transalper)posted. Then if, and when you add other loads (radio, fridge,etc) then add the 2nd battery.

ALSO; wiring two battery together is Ok, and is most likely the #1 way around the world 2+ batteries are hooked up. Just like all the other ways (isolator, solenoid, etc)they have pros &amp; cons.

At least Ford circles the problem.

[jnelson4x4taco]

Hey guys, thanks so much for all the info. Im first going to tell you a little about myself and what i plan to do with my tacoma. I am only a 19 year old college kid who wants to do tons of camping this summer :O) Last summer my best friend and i built a cargo deck in his topper and took a 2 week journey from CO. to CA. after doing this and seeing bajataco's site i put 2 and 2 together and decided 'i HAVE to turn my truck into an expedition vehicle!' I just bought a topper off of some kid at school for $250 and built the cargo deck for $30. I plan on also making my own roof rack and possibly (what this post is about) adding dual batts. I really have no prior experience with dual batteries or any mega lighting. I dont even really know if i need all that lighting, i just figured it would be cool lol. Let me know if you guys think i went over the top with the lighting HAHA. I have 1 pair of KC's already and im ot even sure if i need more as for driving lights. I would like a pair of forward facing flood lamps for wide beam light (since the KC's are pencil beams) Also, the surrounding lights would just serve as trail/camp lights and i could probably go with smaller watt lights (35w if available). Thanks for all the feedback and sorry for the wordy post :O)

[alanh]

I don't actually have any aux lights up front yet, but I'll give you my 2 cents worth based on the deficiencies I see in the stock lights. Additional backup lighting yes - the stock lights suck. Additional lighting down low and wide up front yes - nothing like going into a dip or making a sharp turn in the dark without being able to see. Pencil beams that project out a quarter of a mile are questionable in my opinion. I don't do high-speed offroad driving and there seem to be so few places where I even use high beams due to the volume of traffic on the highway. Even on the highway, I'd think a wider beam closer in would be better. My deer scares have been from deer coming out of the ditch close to my vehicle, not standing in the road 500 yards straight ahead. Like I said, my opinion and others here may disagree.

Alan
KE7AXC
2000 4Runner

[jnelson4x4taco]

thanks for the input, i will definately reconsider my plan of what lights to use. My new plan is to put more close range/ wide beam lights for trails and such.

[BajaTaco]

Jeff, I think it's great that you want to get out and do trips as much as possible http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/wink.gif


As Steve mentioned, a larger alternator might be something to think about if you want to run 50 amps or more of lights/accessories. Having said that, here are my thoughts based on your situation...


If you do any dirt driving at night, and reach speeds anywhere from 35 mph and up, then I would consider mounting two 100w pencil beam lights aimed directly forward, and two 100w wide pattern lights aimed off at about 30-35 degrees to the sides. Run both pairs of lights with the OEM headlamps on low beam to flood the lower ground directly in front of the truck (or high-beam to add extra punch to the pencils for fast straight-aways) This should be sufficient to satisfy your needs to see what you need to.


If you don't expect to ever be dirt driving at those speeds at night, then doing both pairs of lights as wide pattern beams could be beneficial and give you a lot more light saturation in the vicinity of your truck. Either way, this would be only 400w total, which is only 33.3 amps - which I think is do-able with the stock alternator.


The auxiliary side/back lighting should be done with 55w lamps at least (in my opinion). I would put two in the rear and one on each side of your roof rack. The side lamps you might even want to be 100w. The thing to do here though, is make sure that you turn off at least one set of the forward lights before you use the rear/side aux. lights so you are not pulling so much current. I wouldn't really run the aux. lights at camp very much, for more than a brief time maybe. I would just get some kind of latern or use headlamps for full-time camp lighting.


I think using a second battery - a deep cycle aux. battery, for this would be ideal. However, you could get away with using a single battery - but I would make sure it is one that can withstand a lot of use from high-amp draw without negative effects - like an Odyssey or Optima deep cycle/starting battery. If you use only a single battery, at least outfit it with a low-voltage disconnect (like Priority-Start)so you can't drain it at camp. For how much one of these cost though, you could just about buy an isolator.


The upside to my suggestion to use only two pairs of 100w lights, is that since you were planning on three pairs, you can spend the extra money on an isolator and some wiring parts, or put it towards the purchase ofan aux. battery.





BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

Post Edited (BajaTaco) : 4/8/2005 8:32:40 AM (GMT-8)

[jnelson4x4taco]

Chris, your setup sounds ideal. 100w KC's and 100w flood lamps up fornt with 55w rearward lights and 1 side light per side. Im not sure if you guys are familiar with the round lights from walmart, they are about 5' diameter and have a full black housing, i think they are 55 watt but i am not sure. Would these work sufficiently for the sides? The upside to them is that they are oly $10 a piece!

After thinking logically (something college kids dont do well) about it, i realized that my roof rack lights will most likely not be used for camp lights so i will not have to worry about draining the battery when the truck is off.

[rgsiii]

Does anyone have experience with the Painless Wiring or TJM dual battery set up?

www.painlesswiring.com/webcatalog/cat-battacc.htm (http://www.painlesswiring.com/webcatalog/cat-battacc.htm)

www.tjmbullbars.com/ibs.htm (http://www.tjmbullbars.com/ibs.htm)

Post Edited (rgsiii) : 4/10/2005 6:18:25 AM (GMT-8)

[MrS]

rgsiii said...
Does anyone have experience with the Painless Wiring or TJM dual battery set up?


I have seen Painless Wiring kits on other vehicles, and they use really good parts and seem well designed. I have never used, or lived with any of their setup, YET.

I do know about continuous duty solenoids systems. That is not what I have, because that is not the best system for my needs. But if you have Qs I might be able to help.

I didn't know about the TJM set-up, so THANKS for the link. I'll have to do a little research to learn more about then.

At least Ford circles the problem.

[rgsiii]

There is an article by Harry Lewellyn that goes over the TJM IBS system. The simplicity seems nice--like all of the systems, it has failings. It is in this issue of his newsletter.

eco4wd.com/products/Newsletter/default.htm#NEWSLETTERS_ON_THIS_SITE (http://eco4wd.com/products/Newsletter/default.htm#NEWSLETTERS_ON_THIS_SITE)

What are your thoughts?

1981 BJ42
1994 FZJ80
2001 Sequoia

[BajaTaco]

jnelson4x4taco said...
Chris, your setup sounds ideal. 100w KC's and 100w flood lamps up fornt with 55w rearward lights and 1 side light per side. Im not sure if you guys are familiar with the round lights from walmart, they are about 5" diameter and have a full black housing, i think they are 55 watt but i am not sure. Would these work sufficiently for the sides? The upside to them is that they are oly $10 a piece!

After thinking logically (something college kids dont do well) about it, i realized that my roof rack lights will most likely not be used for camp lights so i will not have to worry about draining the battery when the truck is off.Since we are getting off topic with the lights, I started a new thread here (http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/?f=12&amp;m=18900&amp;g=18900#m18900).

I don't have any experience with either the Painless or TJM wiring systems. Thanks for posting the link to Harry's writeup.


BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[MrS]

rgsiii said...
There is an article by Harry Lewellyn that goes over the TJM IBS system.

What are your thoughts?I'm glad you asked (I printed this as proof) ha ha http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/joker1.gif

I really like a 'Harry test report' and I base my opintion on Harry's write-up. Thanks Harry.

The IBS systems looks to be a real good package, and has a few features that that make it stand out. I didn't see a price on it, so that needs to be known. One fun thing the IBS has is the battery 'state of charge' meter.

A few years back I did some early testing of the Xantrex Link 20dual battery montitor for Harry. I didn't agree with ALL the data from the Link 20, BUTI did find it useful, and would like to of had one. I went to their web site but don't see the Link 20 listed now. I guess Harry found the IBS to have 'level of charge' issue, but for me thats not a problem (heck I don't even know mine) I can't deal with along the trail.

Are you getting one? I don't recall why you wanted dual batteries. It's best to base a system on what loads a person plans to put on the batteries.

So once I know what you plan to use the 2nd battery for, and the cost of the IBS I can give more input.





At least Ford circles the problem.

[BajaTaco]

MrS said...

... I went to their web site but don't see the Link 20 listed now.I don't see it on their current product listing either. But they still have the tech. data sheets on their website (.pdf files) ...

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/71/docserve.asp(Description)

http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/76/docserve.asp(Owners Manual)


BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[rgsiii]

I called up TJM and was given 4x4 Connection's name. They have had some negative comments on other boards. They had it in stock. The price is a little high, but the install seems easy.

www.4by4connection.com/tjmibsdubasy.html (http://www.4by4connection.com/tjmibsdubasy.html)

I have a winch, ARB Freezer, and am thinking about how to put a computer onboard. I have already put in a secondary fuse box along the Line of Slee's.

www.sleeoffroad.com/technical/tz_interior_fusebox.htm (http://www.sleeoffroad.com/technical/tz_interior_fusebox.htm)

I have a second battery tray and a Slee windshield washer bottle relocation kit on the way. Next will be to figure out which batteries. Odyssey seems like the best option, but there is something to be said for a more available battery. I would have to mail order them.

Regards

1981 BJ42
1994 FZJ80
2001 Sequoia

[mein_pappa]

Man, I wish I had found this thread about 2 weeks ago. I've an '04 Taco that I will be wiring up (hopefully sometime soon - the parts are all on their way according to UPS) with dual optimas. I hope to mount the optimas in the stock location by moving the coolant overflow bottle and the fusebox, doing a little pounding on the fender and fabricating a new battery mount. I ordered the Painless isolator kit and will be using the second battery to power a painless 7 circuit fuse block for my accessories. Right now there is just a couple of LightForce 240's and a 100W Hella work lamp for a backup light along with some Hella Micro DE's for the road but I anticipate this rig growing and I want to build it out to make that growth as easy as possible.

Internally I will fabricate a switch panel to go either overhead or in front of the stick shift - mounted to the tupperware. I've already mounted a guage pod (thanks to Expeditions West's site) and an oil pressure and volt meter. I plan on running a switch in line to the volt meter so I can check the charge on either battery farily easy.

I think I've captured everything I need and with any luck I'll be able to actually get this thing wired and post pics and notes in a few weeks. Keep your fingers crossed for me - if things don't go well I may wind up posting to this forum in lieu of going to work... :)

Anyone have any recomendations on fabricating the battery tray? I haven't secured a supplier/vendor/fabricator yet and I wonder where you have found or how any of you have fabricated this item - this, to me, is the biggest question mark on my task list.

[BajaTaco]

Hi Allen


Man, if you get duals mounted in the stock location, that will be pretty slick, and I'd definitely like to see some pics. I have not seen that one done yet except on the '05 Maya Hunter Tacoma. Way cool.The two downsides I see to it are that #1 you will be concentratingquite a considerable amount of weight in that one corner (76 lbs. plus the added weight of the frame/bracketry). #2 is that I am a little skeptical of thecarrying capacity of the sheetmetalfender in its stock form. I think you mightbe wise to do some "beefing up" of the fender with maybesome added sheet riveted on, or some bracing, or both - especially ifyou are in a rust-prone environment.


On the brackets - the one we made for my aux. battery consists of a simple bottom frame made ofwelded angle iron (kind of like a picture frame), and a top frame with just a front and back "rail" of angle iron which is clamped down on the top of the battery by means of a threaded rod that is connected to a welded nut on the lower box frame. I imagine the same concept would work well for 2 batteries, with two boxes just welded together at the bottom. (see pic)



BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[Joaquin Suave]

I have a Link 20 in Casa Azul&amp; I like it a lot.


I've had a few issues with it...Because I never have spent the time to configure the peramiters. The big one being that "warning" light bars are alway in the red on my motor bank due to it being used to just crank over the motor. the Link records an extreme draw though there is all kinds of reserve amperage.


Like I said. Its mostly because I don't take the time to figure it out.


Itsure is cool to watch the moniter on a sunny morning showing my 200 watt PV filling up the home bank

[mein_pappa]

Last week I pulled out my battery, moved the coolant resovior aside and did a test fit of the two optimas and, my original estimate was off. It looks like the fuse block will have to be moved back about an inch and I'm going to have to do a bit of body work as, with the two batteries touching side-to-side in the stock location, the outer one was right up on the shroud mounting bracket.

Baja, I like where you've got your battery mounted however, Toyota, in their infinite wisdom, desided that there was too much open realestate over there on the passenger fender and stuck the ABS controller and some sort of computer on the fender.

This is going to get very interesting - either for me, or the truck. :) The modified plan seems to be to move the fuse block back, do some 'minor' body work, have a dual tray made up, find somewhere to mount the aux. fuse block and dual batt. control system (probably in that subdivided realestate by the passenger fender) and wire up the relays in the eng. bay and the switch panel inside the cabin.

In the mean time I'm bogged down in work on the house (spent the last two weekends jackhammering out concrete and asphalt) and will be for the forseeable future - which is difficult b/c I've goodies I want to wire up!! - so it may be a bit before any future updates make their way in.

[BajaTaco]

I have added an article to my website that details my dual battery system (http://www.bajataco.com/dualbatts/dualbatteries01.html).


http://www.bajataco.com/dualbatts/dualbatteries01-sm.jpg (http://www.bajataco.com/dualbatts/dualbatteries01.html)



BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[BajaXplorer]

http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/supercool.gifFinally got over to read your write-upChris. Well written and very informative and should be a big help to those considering dual batt setup.
I'm still trying to figure where to go with second batt as ABS and cruise control pretty much eliminate underhood possibilities. For the time being I continue to carry my batt-in-a-box from Costco just in case.
BX

I'm lost, but I'm making good time. (Yogi Berra)

[AlWalter]

I swear by those 'batt-in-a-box' as you call it. Last month I was camped on the beach 10 miles south of El Golfo when my deep-cycle in my little Airstream bit the dust. 'My batt-in-a-box' powered my trailer for 5 days. I've had this one (from Price Club) for about 10 years. When I got home it was down to under 25% & it charged back up in a couple of days.

KG6SGM
Always ready to go.

[BajaXplorer]

I agree Al, mine is from Costco as well. Been using it for lots of things. When working races the mobile 2m is inconvenient so I plug my HT into one of the sockets for juice and an external speaker into the HT, works great setup on a table. Also carry small inverter to power drill and sabre saw when needed. Also use it with the inverter to power lights for doing race pit at night. Having it so handy is why I have procrastinated on the dual batt setup. If I drain my truck batt (a deep cycle Optima) it will easily start the truck. Heck, I may never get around to doing the other setup.


BX


I'm lost, but I'm making good time. (Yogi Berra)

[Charger92]

Well new to the board. I hope you Yota guys don't mind a Dodge fan.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/beertoast.gif
I was doing a google search for dual battery setups and ran accross this place.
I have been floating around herefor a few days now and see most people are the 4x4 camp/trip freaks along with my wife andself.
I'm sure glad I found it. Some good intelect here.

On with the Dual battery setup.
I wouldn't mind some advice on a paticular need of mine on dual battery setups.
I want my starting battery to be completely seperate from my aux except when I want it for a boost or for when the extra amperage isneeded.
Both the isolator and solenoid have bad characteristics or draw backs.
I don't like theisolator do to problems that can occure with them (diode setup) causing heat, voltage dropandmoreprone to failure.
I don't like the solenoid do to the fact when the ignition is on or when the key is in the on positionboth are linked together. Soif I do agauge read, winch pull or any other reason key in on position, both batterieswould be connected.Along with when I'm driving both linked together, this would mean that the weaker battery would draw from the stronger one.
My off road lights, winch (need to get), fridge, radio, amp,rad fans,etc. will be running off my aux battery.
The starting battery will handle the regular head lights, signal lights, and heater. All theregular stock functions except the radio &amp; relayed fuse block (When ign is in on postion the blockwilldrawoff the aux battery, this is for some of the aux battery items listed above).
Things like my fridge (draws constant except at night), moveable spot lights (great for night set up), shower pump,all switch on/off at the source. So they can be used any time I want with out turning the ign on.

I need a system that will charge each battery when driving, not linked for drain purpose, linked only when I say so and no problem with a regular diode isolator.
A solonoid with a non link when on/startmode, but still able to charge both when running,would be the ideal setupI think, do thay make such a thing.
I want your inputon what to get andwhere to get it.

Thanks for your help.




Ramcharger," Built for pure function!"

[BajaTaco]

Charger92 said...
Well new to the board. I hope you Yota guys don't mind a Dodge fan.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/beertoast.gifVariety is the spice of life! Welcome to the forum!

I think the system that you want is pretty much exactly what I have. With the exception that my am/fm stereo is still connected to the factory wiring harness, I think I have what you described as your goal. My only other concern would be your request " I want it for a boost or for when the extra amperage isneeded." The Xantrex Pathmaker solenoid that I use has a moment-switch for a quick combining of batteries for a jump-start, but is not meant for prolonged loads (like winching or welding).

I understand your concern about combining two batteries with different states-of-charge while the key is turned on. However, the Pathmaker controller has a "connect voltage" setting that you can control - via a dial on the control panel. It will not connect the batteries until that voltage is reached. So, when the key is on - and the alternator is running, there is a sufficient voltage being supplied to allow both batteries to simultaneously charge. While the alternator is charging both batteries, I don't think the aux. battery will be drawing down the starting battery, because the alternator is supplying more voltage than the low (aux) battery can siphon from the main battery. (does that make sense?) If you are in doubt about this, you can call Xantrex and ask them to make sure

Xantrex
Customer Service &amp; Technical Support</o:p>
Tel: 800.670.0707

If you don't want to go this route, you might also check HellRoaring's (http://www.hellroaring.com/) system. Or Wrangler NW (http://www.wranglernw.com/).


BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[Charger92]

BajaTaco said...



Charger92 said...
Well new to the board. I hope you Yota guys don't mind a Dodge fan.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/beertoast.gifVariety is the spice of life! Welcome to the forum!

I think the system that you want is pretty much exactly what I have. With the exception that my am/fm stereo is still connected to the factory wiring harness, I think I have what you described as your goal. My only other concern would be your request " I want it for a boost or for when the extra amperage isneeded." The Xantrex Pathmaker solenoid that I use has a moment-switch for a quick combining of batteries for a jump-start, but is not meant for prolonged loads (like winching or welding).

I understand your concern about combining two batteries with different states-of-charge while the key is turned on. However, the Pathmaker controller has a "connect voltage" setting that you can control - via a dial on the control panel. It will not connect the batteries until that voltage is reached. So, when the key is on - and the alternator is running, there is a sufficient voltage being supplied to allow both batteries to simultaneously charge. While the alternator is charging both batteries, I don't think the aux. battery will be drawing down the starting battery, because the alternator is supplying more voltage than the low (aux) battery can siphon from the main battery. (does that make sense?) If you are in doubt about this, you can call Xantrex and ask them to make sure

Xantrex
Customer Service &amp; Technical Support</o:p>
Tel: 800.670.0707

If you don't want to go this route, you might also check HellRoaring's (http://www.hellroaring.com/) system. Or Wrangler NW (http://www.wranglernw.com/).



Thanks for the info and welcome.
[quote]I'll give Xantrex a call.
[quote]I heardwind this weekend of a new product coming out just along the lines I'm looking for but very diverse for differentapplications.
[quote]As soon as I know more I will post.

Ramcharger," Built for pure function!"

[lucazec]

I had a winch fest last week so I think I may be looking into this.

Great info here, thanks.

Kev
www.AlpineTribe.com (http://www.AlpineTribe.com)

[Goingwayoutback]

http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/notme.gifHow about just running two batteries side by side that could fit in you stock battery tray but still give you 12 volts but twice the CCA. Wouldnt these batteries hold a charge twice as long? I'm thinking the Optima batteries (yellow top) Even if they cant fit in the same tray two would still be better than one. Am I missing something here? My alternator is 160 amp and I can fit those new Optimas (smaller but with high CCA) in my stock location.





Oh and I too have a Dodge! Welcome aboard Charger92.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/supercool.gif

Going way outback and picking up other peoples garbage!

[BajaTaco]

Yea, you could certainly do that. But you basically still only have "one" battery. If one dies, so will the other. Again, this gets back to whatever your preferences are. I just prefer to have two isolated batteries.


BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[BajaTaco]

Hey GWOB, I was thinking about what you said... and I had an idea. You could always run the two burly batteries as you mentioned, which would be great for your winch. And then just carry one of the famous "battery-in-a-box" 's for those emergency starts and other handy uses. With your GVWR you could carry 3 batteries without too much concern of weight penalty. Until you add a camper on the back anyway http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif


BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

Post Edited (BajaTaco) : 6/21/2005 1:34:41 PM (GMT-8)

[Goingwayoutback]

I'm thinking about a Flip-Pac with a Stowaway battery in the back.

Going way outback and picking up other peoples garbage!

[VikingVince]

A FLIPPAC?? What the hell is that? :-)

If you go the flippac route, why not put the auxillary battery in the cargo bed? Then you can put a good size battery back there with lotta amp hours for a frig/freeze or whatever. I've got an AGM (absorbed glass mat) Concorde Lifeline 31T in the cargo bed with 105 amp hours!! It's great...most I've done so far is 4 days in one place without starting the truck and the frig is still goin strong...haven't taken a battery reading yet at that point but next time I do that I will.

1998 Toyota Tacoma 4x4, 31" BFG AT's, Flippac convertible camper shell, cargo bed built-in seats/cabinets,Deaver rear 10 pack leafsprings, Donahoe front 2.5" coilovers, Stubbs Sliders, ARB Bullbar, Hella 550 Fogs, rear frame reinforcement, custom top rack, 2rear bumper swingout gas can carriers, sway bar disconnects, CB&amp; 2m radio, Optima Redtop, Concorde LifelineAGM auxillary battery, 52 qt Coolmatic frig/freeze...that's enough...reminds me of all the money I've spent :-)

[Goingwayoutback]

Sounds like a nice set-up! Keep me posted on what the charge is like after a few days outback. Thanks.

Going way outback and picking up other peoples garbage!

[p1michaud]

Hi folks,

It's my first post here, but I've been lurking arround since Bajataco pointed me in this direction.

Well I now have Dual Batteries under the hood. /forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I have an Optima Red top as the starter battery. Follow THIS (http://www.bajataco.com/optimaredtop.html).
link for more details. Thanks Bajataco for hosting.

I've mounted a SurePower Isolator model #9523A found at Canadian Tire for $45 CDN for you Canadians on the forum. I also got a killer deal on an Exide Orbital Marine Deep Cycle as the aux battery. I mounted the battery under the hood on the passenger side wheel well. Righ where the ABS system would be if I had it! Initial testing looks good. I know that a post without pics is not good so I'll have to post some tonight.

Cheers /forum/emoticons/beertoast.gif ,
p

[BajaTaco]

Hi P - welcome to the forum! Glad to hear you got it all hooked up and ready to roll. Let us know how it does for you.



BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[mein_pappa]

p1michaud said...
Well I now have Dual Batteries under the hood. /forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif
P,
Do you have any pictures of your under-hood installation? Did you mount your spare battery in the same position as Baja?

[p1michaud]

BajaTaco, no problem. I've tested them both once again tonight. Both batteries are getting a nice charge and holding it well to date granted it's only one week!

Allen, yes I do have a few pictures, let me try again since last time they were not showing properly.

The Red Top 34/78 is in the stock location. The Orbital Marine in the same location as BajaTaco had mounted his. The only difference is that I managed to squeeze the battery and keep the cruise control module under the hood. Yeah yeah it's pretty dirty...

I can't seem to get it to work but go here: photobucket.com/albums/y12/p1michaud/ (http://photobucket.com/albums/y12/p1michaud/) and see under the 'Dual Batteries' sub album for some pics.

Cheers /forum/emoticons/beertoast.gif,
P

99 Tacoma, 4x4, V6, Custom built slider bars, 31" MT/Rs, retrofitted E-locker.( PICS HERE (http://community.webshots.com/user/p1michaud)). New: OME 881s + N91sc and TJM T-17. Pics added see HERE (http://photobucket.com/albums/y12/p1michaud/Tacoma/)!

[calamaridog]

Anyone know who has good prices on the Xantrex Pathfinder units?

2000 UZJ100 Land Cruiser - 2002 Jeep Liberty 4x4</font></font>

Member: TLCA, TTORA, Blue Ribbon Coalition</font></font>

[BajaTaco]

calamaridog said...
Anyone know who has good prices on the Xantrex Pathfinder units?


Here ya go - eBay auction (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Xantrex-PathMaker-100-3-Battery-Combiner-w-Remote_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ26444QQitemZ4586 206463QQrdZ1) that ends 11-5-05 and even has the remote control. Keep in mind this is the 100 amp unit, so cannot be used with a high-output alternator. (I know it works with the stock Tacoma alt.)


BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[TimB]

I finally loaded enough crap on my rig I had to go dual batteries. 2 optima yellowtops, a 165 amp alt., and a 200 amp isolator. The isolator is a foot long. It's getting crowded under my hood.

I can fix that!

[calamaridog]

That is a good find but I may be pushing my luck. The stock alternator on the LC is 100 amps.

The new Tacoma gets a 130 amp alternator with the towing package. I wonder if it fits other models?

2000 UZJ100 Land Cruiser - 2002 Jeep Liberty 4x4</font></font>

Member: TLCA, TTORA, Blue Ribbon Coalition</font></font>

[BajaTaco]

calamaridog said...

The new Tacoma gets a 130 amp alternator with the towing package. I wonder if it fits other models?


Are you asking ifthe 130 amp alt. fits other model Toyotas, or are you asking if the 100 amp Pathmaker fits other model Tacomas?

Yea, Scott mentioned to me that the new Tacomas have a higher amp alternator, and I should have clarified that I meant the 100 will work with the 98-00 Tacomas for sure. And as far as I know, the 01-04's are using the same alternator as well.

You could always call Xantrex and ask them about using it with your 100A alternator. My guess is that it would.


BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[calamaridog]

Sorry for not being more clear. I was wondering if the new 130 amp alternator (the one from the 05+ Tacoma) will fit other Toyota models. Something for me to look into.

As far as using the 100 amp Xantrex with the 100 amp alternator in my Land Cruiser, I don't think I want to risk it.

I'm now leaning towards the Powergate product from Mobi-Arc. They have a 200 amp version which is just a bit more expensive than the Xantrex 250 amp product.

2000 UZJ100 Land Cruiser - 2002 Jeep Liberty 4x4</font></font>

Member: TLCA, TTORA, Blue Ribbon Coalition</font></font>

[TimB]

Here's a link to one like I installed:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Multi-Battery-Isolator-240-amp-50v-max-Car-Stereo-Audio_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33578QQitemZ80114 27848QQrdZ1

Big and bulky but seems to work very well.




I can fix that!

[MLachica]

I just picked up this...

http://www.perfectswitch.com/isolator.htm

It's the 82-200 model

It will manage two odyssey 1200mjt's in the stock tacoma location. I'm still waiting for my batteries to arrive. I'll keep you guys posted on the install.

[calamaridog]

Sweet!

That is the isolator right? I think I'll be using the same one.

You going to run winch, lights, etc. off the second battery?

2000 UZJ100 Land Cruiser - 2002 Jeep Liberty 4x4</font></font>

Member: TLCA, TTORA, Blue Ribbon Coalition</font></font>

[MLachica]

Yeah, it's the isolator. I got the 200 amp one just in case I get a bigger/badder alternator http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/cool.gif

I opted to not get the isolator/combiner cuz when you combine the batteries, one fully charged and the othersay half charged -massive amountsof current will run through the isolator from the charged battery to the not charged battery. So if the isolator/combiner is not rated for the amount of in rush current failure can happen.

But to be able to combine