FIRST AID KIT/CPR...

[blupaddler]

Well, I kinda looked around for something on this topic. But not too much since I have dial up and it goes soooo s l o w.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/sleeping.gif


I performed CPR today. Don't worry the person lived...http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/ok-kewl.gif http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/ok-kewl.gif http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/ok-kewl.gif


I race paddleboards. For those of you who probably don't know...they are like surfboards but much longer and only meant to paddle on. Not a very good explaination, mine is 18' long, most of our races range in the 7 to 16 mile range going up to 32 miles for the grand daddy. Any way enough off topic.

We had a short three mile race today in Dana Point. At the finish a bunch of us were hanging out trying out other peoples boards, etc. Turns out some one either had a seizure or something, in the water. Basically they aspirated salt water, which is very bad. Somebody pulled them out of the water on to a dock. He had no pulse and was not breathing. Any how to make a long story short, I ended up doing CPR on the guy, just chest compressions (he had a lot of spuedum) and one of the guys I work with was on the head. The guy came back!!! By the time paramedics arrived he had a pulse and was breathing on his own.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/yeah.gif



So...this got me thinking. I am a Lifeguard for the City of San Diego, so I am an EMT. But, I can only do so much with so much. My point being we all spend so much time and money on mods to our trucks and then go and buy the ten dollar first aid kit with only a few band aids, gauze pads, and iodine. Which cannot help much more than a scrape or cut.

My question to all of you is how many of you are trained/certified in first aid, wilderness first aid, first responder, CPR, etc. And WHAT do you carry in your first aid kit???

Sorry if this seems as one man's ranthttp://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/smashfreakb.gif but I know that I am now going to be re-thinking my first aid kit and what I carry.

Thats all...thankshttp://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/beertoast.gif

</div>

robb

[GoodTimes]

This is actually a good subject, one that was touched on very lightly during the post-Rubicon thread. It is also overlooked too often, myself included.</div>



While I don't have a $10 first aid kit (it was closer to $35 http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/eyes.gif , it is kinda lacking in some areas (ok, alot of areas). It has all the basics, and then some, but it would not be very useful for any major trauma. As for training, I have had a fair amount while in the military (calling for help while out to sea was not much of a option). Much of that training was for mass casualty type stuff. Amputations, broken bones, severe bleeding, puncture wounds, etc. Most of it is not really accepted practice in the civilian world, because out here we just imobilize the victom and call 911. In the military we trained to move them. But I am considering seeking out some more training, particularly wilderness first aid type stuff where there can be no realistic expectation of a quick response from anyone.</div>


olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

[alanh]

GoodTimes,

You might look for a mountaineering-oriented first aid (MoFA is the acronym IIRC) which is directed toward hikers and climbers who might be hours to maybe a day away from help. I don't know about everywhere, but they offer them in the Seattle area.

I took one way too long ago when I was taking a climbing course. I can't say this is real current, but at that time, they did talk about things like basic splinting andwound treatment and bandaging forlonger times (hours to a day or so) that you probably don't get in a "standard" first aid course where you might expect help to be minutes away. There wasn't a lot of discussion of any serious medical stufflikeantibiotics that a "real" expedition to remote parts of the world withbetter trained people might carry - especially if they have vehicles thatallow more to be carried.Weekend climbers and hikers typically don't carry a whole lot of supplies for advanced aid anyway; too much other stuff on the back already.

Alan

[MrS]

The wife and I kicked this around from time to time.

Since you are an EMT, maybe you can give us (me) some useful guidance and/or help

We carry a big First-aid kit. Mainly for cuts/burns/stings/etc.

Most trips we have Satellite Phone coverage, and GPS to call for help. I think this would be good for falls and such. But since we travel alot, many miles from paveded roads, a helicopter is about the only we will get fast help, even that puts help 30+ minutes away. Is CPR something thats will help during a heart attack that far from help?

Keep us posted

KF6YSB

[alanh]

CPR can be critical even in town. Remember, you've got onlya very few (I want to say3 but may be wrong)minuteswithout oxygen to the brain and thats the end of it for you. I don't know if it does much good if the heart is beating erratically and it isn't an intermediate or long term heart attack care technique.

Alan

[WhiteThaiGer]

blupaddler, I agree with Steve, give us some hints on what to carry and what skills might be the most useful to take classes for. This is a subject neglected, probably because no one wants to have bad things happen or even think about them. </div>
I haven't done anything on this subject since the class that's required for anyone wanting a driver licenses in Germany. Won't say how loooong ago that was, scares me to see that large number.</div>
Srisuda has to take a CPR type class ever year or so since she works at a school. I always find excuses not to join.... that should change!</div>



***************************************
http://www.confluence.org
http://www.usgo.org

[MrsS]

I have taken CPR classes many times but I need to take a refresher. But I remember what to do. Just don't have a certification card.
MrsS

[blupaddler]

I will try to stay away from being too technical. </div>
CPR is meant to be used within six or so minutes. After that the brain looses oxygen supply and damage starts to occur. It is to allow time for the Paramedics (ALS) to get there and have something positive to still work with. However there are different rythms that the heartcan fall into, some making CPRineffective. Just to remember though also that CPR involves chest compressions and breathing for the patient. This suppling oxygenated blood to the body and brain. </div>



But, having a general knowledge can help. And the Good Samaritan law will protect people who help out in such circumstances. However in my case I receive training every year, so I am held to standards different than that which the Samaritan law protects. The funny thing, if you call it that, is that every year there is some sort of change in compression ratio etc. </div>



Enough of that for now. My belief is that you should carry an acceptable type of first aid kit, and know how to use everything in it. Good classes to take are: CPR (red cross or american heart association), First Responder, or a good class that might be more geared to the type of travel that we do would be Wilderness First Aid type class. They deal with injuries in an environment when help is not the typical five minutes away.</div>
Kits...There are lots of different types out there. So just look carefully at the indgredients. But, something like MrS has sounds good. As you take more classes or expand your knowledge, expand your kit.</div>


http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/yeah.gif http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/yeah.gif

robb

[expeditionswest]

Having been a fireman and EMT for many years in Idaho, I tend to have kits that are a little overkill.Some of the equipment (like intubation airways)I cannot legally use on someone other than a family member, as my license is long expired. </div>
These are the two kits I have. I usually only carry the smaller of the two, unless I am climbing or going to Mexico.</div>
Big Kit (http://www.galls.com/style.html?assort=general_catalog&amp;style=TK031)</div>
http://www.galls.com/jpegs/7761.jpg</div>
Small Kit (http://www.galls.com/style.html?assort=general_catalog&amp;style=TK047&amp;cat= 469)- I added a C-collar

http://www.galls.com/jpegs/7767.jpg

Scott Brady
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com

[Ramdough]

[quote]

Scott Brady said...


Big Kit (http://www.galls.com/style.html?assort=general_catalog&amp;style=TK031)
http://www.galls.com/jpegs/7761.jpg

[quote]
[quote]Scott, I am an ECA, and I was thinking of buying the exact same kit. What do you think of it? How much extra space does it have in it (with the standard items in it)?
[quote]
[quote]Thanks,
[quote]Doug

[blupaddler]

Not to sound too ignorant, but what is an "ECA"</div>


WHERE 2 NEXT


robb

[Ramdough]

ECA = Emergency Care Attendant

It is basically an EMT Basic without needles and a few other skills.

Basically, I can respond to allot of emergency situations, but I am not a professional. I amcertified through the TexasDepartment of Health and practice under a doctor's license as a corporate first responder.

Boils down to a well trained volunteer. I am trained to use every thing in that kit plus a few other things (that cost more money like O2, Blood Glucometer, and Pulse Oxemeter).

[expeditionswest]

Doug,

Nice to meet you! The big kit that I have had some room left over, but not much. I was able to add a few bloodstoppers an that was about it. The smaller kit had more room available, and I added a nice C-collar, and BP cuff to that one.

Scott Brady
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com

[BajaTaco]

BTT for some news...

Simplified CPR technique is urged (http://www.dailystar.com/dailystar/metro/57556)


BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

[HenryJ]

I am a fairly new EMT-B for Oregon.

I have yet to find a reasonable kit for all ocasions that doesn't include a ton of usless junk.
Best bet in my opinion is to find a nice bag that fits your storage. Make a trip to the local drug store and stock up on band-aids, pads tape, more tape, heavy scissors,antiseptic, sterile water, and a nice barrier device (laerdal pocket mask), asprin, benadryl, womens sanitary napkins/pads, space blanket or small tarp, etc.

You can stock a kit for the injuries that you are likely to encounter. Add a little here and there as you see a need. If you have someone who has allergies (bee stings) some benadryl in your kit might make sense, Blood glucose monitor, and glucose if you have a diabetic in the crew , or sunburn cream if you are exposed to lots of sun. You might add a sam splint if hiking is in your plans. Duct tape and a folded atlas make a nice splint in a pinch. Be creative it doesn't have to come in a commercial kit to be of use.
Each persons kit may vary a little.
I carry a BP cuff and stethoscope as well as the pocket mask. 13 years with the department, and hope it never gets used.

Band-aids of assorted sizes , soap and water, are what get used the most on my trips /forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif

'Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU </font>want to go?'-mechanic from Mad Max-</font>

If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving!</font> - ThunderII (http://fmtc.com/~brule/thunder2.html)

Post Edited (HenryJ) : 1/19/2005 6:00:02 PM (GMT-8)

[alanh]

Interesting article. Its been too long since I took CPR training.

If I understand the article correctly, the chart at the top must be the current recommendation and these guys are saying do the compressions and forget the breathing. Even without interruptions for the breathing, its a pretty furious pace to keep upthose compressions.

After thinking about it,ifyoufollow the poster shown and do compressions at a 100-120 per minute rate (i.e.about 2 per second) and interrupt that for breathing, you're going to do a lot less than 100-120 total compressions per minute unless you're really quick with the breaths. I'm not sure I know what they really meant without doing some study.

Alan
KE7AXC
2000 4Runner

[alanh]

One thing I know I'm pretty lax about when it comes to first aid kits and other emergency supplies is periodically replacing thingsbefore they get too old to work. Someitems have definite expiration dates on them, but things like band-aids can also dry out and not be sticky anymore. I'm not even sure what a reasonable replacement schedule is. Arbitrarily replace every year? Take some samples out and test them and replace if they're losing their stick?

IknowI should check that stuff more often than I do.I have a really old plastic shelter (tube tent) in an emergency kit that might just fall apart if I ever need it.

Alan
KE7AXC
2000 4Runner

[Lloyd Swartz]

One thing I do, is any time you go to the doctor for a bump they give you tons of antibiotics and super pain killers. I fill all the scripts, even though we rarely use much of them, then stock the first aid kit.Those are far more usefull in a trama situation then aspirin and bandaids. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/baja_rofl.gif Just make sure to watch expiration dates and temperature exposure for some. I would think for extreme foreign expeditions someanti-venom kept in your refridgerator might be wise.

[HenryJ]

CPR: Like they said it has changed periodically. The main thing to remember is that adults need circulation. Their pump (heart) is the weak link, and it is really hard to be effective when doing chest compressions. That is why they are focusing on that part.
Most people can actually be a little too forceful when doing breaths. Watch for stomach distension. That is another good reason for a barrier device...puke. always assess the ABC's Airway first, then Bleeding, Circulation last. They are all important! The biggest lifesaver for adults is early AED and early ALS. Shock'em and drug'em. Call 911 then do CPR until help arrives.

Oregon, as well as many others I'm sure have two versions of CPR. One for Healthcare providers, and one for the public. The publics version is less complicated and easy to remember.

Children are the reverse. Children's heart stops beating primarily from respiratory failure. If you can get them breathing the heart follows easily. Always do a minute of CPR then call 911.

'Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU </font>want to go?'-mechanic from Mad Max-</font>

If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving!</font> - ThunderII (http://fmtc.com/~brule/thunder2.html)

[blupaddler]

Henry...just curious what is an EMT-B? We have D, and C. (Combi-tube, and Defib)

WHERE 2 NEXT

robb

[HenryJ]

National Registry , and Oregon Emergency Medical Techncian Basic. In addition to AED, SAD use we can do sub-q eppi, naso/oropharyagneal airways, combi-tube after the additional training, oral glucose, asprin, activated charcoal, assist with PT use of inhaler, O2 admin.
Basics do non-invasive procedures, as well as those permitted by their medical director. With proper training of course.

The next level, Intermediates , evaluate cardiac rythms, administer IV , and have some drugs that they can push, in addition to advanced airway techniques.

The third level here is the Paramedic, they get to do it all, and DO know it all /forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif

There is also a First Responder Level of medical training for firefighters , police, and ambulance personel. This is just and advanced first aid and CPR certification.

'Speed is just a matter of Money - How fast do YOU </font>want to go?'-mechanic from Mad Max-</font>

If at first you don't succeed - Don't take up Skydiving!</font> - ThunderII (http://fmtc.com/~brule/thunder2.html)

Post Edited (HenryJ) : 1/19/2005 9:09:26 PM (GMT-8)

[Ursidae69]

I take adult CPR every year where I work and first aid every 2 years. When you are a field biologistworking miles froma paved road at times, CPR/First Aid is a must. Last time I took CPR a few months ago, the ratio was 15:2, chest compressions to breathes. That is also in my National Safety Council book from the class. If it has changed, we are not implementing it here.

As far as a first aid kit goes, I have a decent kit from REI that I carry and I've added 4x4s, gloves, and a rescue breathing mask to it.

I've never had to use any of it yet thankfully. There was one time I thought I might...

In August of 2003 I was visiting Colorado and early one morning I drove over Independence Pass, I think it's the highest auto pass, don't recall. Anyway, as I left the parking area after a nice hike I see this lady that had just wrecked her SUV. A boulder she hit was holding her vehicle from rolling down. Below her, just outside the frame of the attached picture, she would have rolled for several miles. I was 2nd on the scene and the driver was hurt pretty bad. She was drunk as hell too at 9am. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/notme.gif So, we hooked my truck to her frame to try to stabilize her SUV, then worked on her. It was over an hour before paramedics arrived. The driver's neck was fine, she was moving her head around a lot, but her back was hurt and she was bleeding all over. After 30 mintues of her vehicle making noises and shifting, the group of now maybe 10 people decided to move her to the road surface above to lay her down and warm her. It was a cold morning. I ended up carrying her up the embankment myself and we used my camping gear to warm her in, blankets, sleeping bag, etc. Before we moved her, I snapped a single picture, I didn't think it was right to take more. Anyway, that's the closest I've been to actually using my CPR and First Aid training.


2004 Tacoma Extracab TRD (http://www.chucksweb.net/Pages/Trucks/Vehicles.htm#Tacoma)
2001 GMC Sonoma ZR2 (Sold at 153k miles) (http://www.chucksweb.net/Pages/Trucks/Vehicles.htm#GMC)
Please Tread Lightly (http://www.treadlightly.org/ )
KE5DNP

[JackSilb]

So nice you guys are talking about this again. Yesterday I had it in my mind. Telepathy maybe?

I was thinking that I need to renew my 4 years old CPR training. Having kids around make me more worry than never. I was thinking on what first aid kit to get too. The one I had in the car is spoiled. Most of the things are expired. The cleaning solution broke and made a mess. I will probably start with a basic kit and get good material then. I don't like the quality of the generic things they use in the kit. I like J&J things alot.

Do you guys know where to take the 'mountaineering-oriented first aid (MoFA is the acronym IIRC)' training around San Diego?

Robb it was very nice to read your first post again. My hero!

This Forum is very nice. You see people with this kind of thinking instead of just 'what can I get to my truck next...'
Way to go folks.

-JACK


So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

[blupaddler]

Jack...

Thanks. Ironically enough, I received a letter from this gentleman a couple of weeks ago. Turns out, he had a brain tumor. Had no previous signs or symptoms. Just had a seizure at the finish of the paddleboard race that day, and aspirated. I have seen many dead people in my career. And only two of them have lived. This guy and another one (another story).


He had surgery and is doing good. He is back in the water surfing, paddling, fishing. Being around the ocean. The best therapy there is. Side note he has a wife and a little girl who are both very happy.


O.K. Back on track.
Jack. Look into the Wilderness First Responder Class. For the trips we take this will give you the best knowledge. Basic CPR is put on by the Red Cross, and American Heart Association. I am hoping to become an Instructor for American Heart sometime soon. But the class is usually only 8 hours.

Have fun!

WHERE 2 NEXT

robb

[JackSilb]

Thanks for the info. I will check them out . The boss here at home told me that I am way too much out of home. Always finding something to do. That is her turn now.

-JACK


So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net