Tires

[imported_admin]

Lets start compiling the recent discussion on tires. Good staff!

[JackSilb]

Scott Brady said...

You have decided on some great modification. IMO the most important modifications (or factory options) for a vehicle are (I call it the 3 t's):

1. Tires: Diameter and Tread
2. Traction: LSD or Locking Differential. Traction Control fits in this category too, but would not apply to your truck
3. Travel: Suspension Travel (articulation)

Of course there are many other important modifications, but these will get you farther down a trail than any others, safer and with less impact to the terrain.

So to give you some feedback on your modifications:

Tires: In an SUV, which usually has good F/R weight balance, I would opt for a taller tire rather than a wider one for mixed terrain. On your truck a 33X12.5 will likely rub under full compression, but a 33x10.5 probably won't. The 32x11.5 would be another good size. The goal is to run as large a tire as possible with full suspensiontravel. If you have to lower the bump stops, you will loose articulation, and trail performance.

I run the BFG KM 33x10.5 on my Wrangler which allows me to use a factory offset wheel, and keeps the tires under the fender flares. Unless you are driving in terrain that requires a lot of flotation (like sand), go with an aggressive tread, and a narrower width.

Here are a few tires to consider:

BFG AT KO: A good all terrain, I have used them for years. Strong sidewall, but outer lugs tear in sharp rocks. On my Jeep
BFG KM: A mild mud tire, that is still quiet (relatively) on the highway. Great traction in rocks, less so in sand. On my Land Rover, Doron too
Yokohama Geolander: The all terrain has a good tread pattern with generous siping (groves cut in the tread block for greater traction). My Trooper
The Goodyear MTR: Aggressive tread, soft compound gives good traction on most rock, but they wear VERY fast.



So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net


Post Edited (JackSilb) : 1/25/2004 9:54:54 PM GMT

[JackSilb]

Scott Brady said...

Well, we are having an interesting discussion on tireshttp://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif , aren’t forums great!</o:p>
So here is one man’s opinion on tires, with a little bit of science thrown in for fun:</o:p>
Stability: </o:p>
For a vehicle to handle similar to stock you would need to increase the tire width for every inch of lift and for every inch of tire height from the hub centerline to the ground (or half of the total tire height). Of course even with the correct amount of width added, your truck will respond slower, and have greater roll-in due to thedeflection of the taller sidewall (that is why sport cars run large wheels and low aspect ratios). </o:p>
Uwe’s truck started with a 28.3" tall / 8.8" wide tire. So if the truck is lifted +3 inches and a 33" tall tire (+2.35") is added, the replacement tire would have to be 14.15" wide! Ouch. I have found that suspension design and bushing/roll bar strength are better compliments to a reasonably wide tire.. Flotation tires were developed for the <st1:country-region><st1:place>US market about 20 years ago to address our larger vehicles (more flotation required) and higher road speeds (better handling). Common metric (European) sizes are always narrower than the equivalent flotation (inch) tire. For example, a common flotation 33" (32.6" typical)tirehas a12.5 section width; whereas the 285/75 R16 (32.8") is only 11" wide at the section width.A 33 or 35x12.5 is a good choice for a full size (heavy) vehicle. Anything wider than a 12" tire on a light vehicle is actually a detriment to traction on hard surfaces (see below) </o:p>
Traction: </o:p>
Tread design- The tread you select needs to be appropriate to the terrain you are driving on. A mud tire will perform poorly on the sand compared to an all terrain, etc.
Contact Pressure- This is an often overlooked factor when selecting a tires width. The weight (Lbs. per square inch) of the vehicle is spread out across the contact patch of the tire. If you have a wide tire on a light vehicle you will have poorer traction on rock, but great traction on sand. Of course there is a limit to this (point of diminishing return), and is very situation specific. If you look at the tires used in competitive rock crawlers they are rarely over 13.5" wide, even on 40" diameter tires. Tires in the 10 to 12" range on a light vehicle are perfect for most terrain. A narrower (within reason) tire will always provide better traction than a wider tire unless flotation is required due to the contact pressure. </o:p>
Durometer Rating- The durometer rating of the rubber compound also contributes to improved traction. A softer tire (lower durometer) like a Goodyear MTR or BFG Moab edition will perform better than other tires, as the tread "lugs" can deform under pressure to conform to the terrain, similar to lowering the air pressure. The down size is greater propensity to cuts and torn lugs, and a higher wear rate. It does seem that Goodtimes has had good luck with wear on the MTR's, but I think the lighter Jeep help a lot. The tires on my Jeep's always seem to wear well. Here are some internet comments on the MTR. Most love the tire, but many note high wear http://www.epinions.com/Goodyear_Wrangler_MTR_Truck_SUV_Tire/display_~reviews
Siping-Tire siping and grooving also improves tires traction on most surfaces. The benefits are most apparent on ice and wet surfaces.</o:p>
Given the same height, tread design and sidewall thickness; here is a review of the benefits of different widths:</o:p>
Wider Tire (12-14"):</o:p>
Benefits:
Greater flotation on soft surfaces (less contact pressure per square inch)
They do look cool<v:shape id=_x0000_i1026 style="WIDTH: 11.25pt; HEIGHT: 11.25pt" type="#_x0000_t75" alt="biggrin"> <v:imagedata src="file:///C:\DOCUME~1\SCOTTB~1\LOCALS~1\Temp\msohtml1\08\cli p_image001.gif" o:href="http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif"></v:imagedata></v:shape>
Increased stability</o:p>
Disadvantages:
Greater rotating mass- It takes more power to turn, and a greater likelihood of broken parts
Fuel Economy- Greater resistance to the road and air
Less traction on hard surfaces (less contact pressure)
Less traction in snow, ice and mud where flotation is not required</o:p>
Narrower Tire (10-12"):

Benefits (other than the disadvantages of the wider tire):
Less unsprung weight
Easier to fit on factory wheels, and less lift is required (usually)
You can fit in tighter areas (every little bit helps)
Less engine power is required to gain wheel speed, or push through shallow mud and snow </o:p>
Disadvantages:
Less Flotation on soft surface (this can be a major factor in sand)
Less stability
Potential for increased damage to terrain on muddy tracks </o:p>
Practical Application: If you look at any major expedition effort, the tires of choice are almost always narrower. For example, the Turtle Expedition who has literally traveled around the world used a 255/85 R16 (33.1 x 10) for many thousands of miles on their full size Ford. Land Rover uses narrow 7.0 R16 XCLtires in all of their Camel Trophy events. Rain Forest Challenge and The Trophy challenge have all been won by the aggressive Simex Trekker tire (35x11.00).Even Tom Sheppard the "god" of expedition travel uses the 7-7.5 R16 Michelin XZL and XCLfor most of his expeditions. Most of this information can be found in the Land Rover Driving Instructor Curriculum. </o:p>
The choice of tires and width has always been a point of serious discussion (camp fire talk), and the opinions are as varied as the types of tires available. Everyone needs to pick what works for them, and the terrain they most frequently drive. I certainly respect the ideas of others on this subject, especially those of Goodtimes and Baja, astheir comments come from direct experiencehttp://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/beertoast.gif. After many vehicles (16+) and tires (30+ sets) I have settled on a 10-11" width and 32-33" height as what works best for me, and the type of terrain I drive.
Goodtimes: The Yokohama Geolander A/T you are refering to is likely the older tread design. The new A/T+II has only been on the market for about a year. They make less noise than the BFG A/T's that I replaced (I have a Db meter).I have not experienced the sidewall damage you refer to on the BFG tires (I have had about 10 sets), the MTR and BFG both have 3-ply sidewalls. I may seem that theyfail at a higher rate because BFG is a more common tire on the trailhttp://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/notme.gif
Sorry for the long post, but I do love this stuff! http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/smilewinkgrin.gif






</div>



So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
[B]Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

[Collin]

Here are some of my documents on tires, wheels and air pressure.


Tire design and construction.


http://bigredheep.com/modules.php?name=ForumNews&amp;id=3411


Wheel design and construction.


http://bigredheep.com/modules.php?name=ForumNews&amp;id=3414


Tire pressure


http://bigredheep.com/modules.php?name=ForumNews&amp;id=3412





Feel free to add your input freely to any of my articles guys.






Post Edited (Collin) : 8/15/2004 6:40:21 AM (GMT-8)

[GoodTimes]

As long as we are on the subject of tires......Earlier Scott made a comment about how fast the Goodyear MT/R's wear. On my last set, I finally retired them with just shy of 37,000 miles on them.

They started with .5937' of tread (19/32'), they had ~.1500' left on them when they were replaced. That is about 25% of the total tread. Keep in mind that 3/32' is considered bald from a legal standpoint (IIRC). So there was a couple thousand miles left on them if I wanted to push it, but they were pretty much gone at that point. But the performace of them far outweighs the slightly shorter tread life for the type of terrain I drive on. The replacement set was another set of MT/R's, in a slightly larger size (285/75R16 instead of 265/75R16).


olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

[outdoorfever]

I have Yokohama Geolanders AT right now with 35k on them. The tread is wearing very thin on them. The fronts are very un even, I guess from improper balancing/rotation and I need an alignment. I am trying to decide on my next set of tires. I hope to go up at least to a 32, maybe 33's, but I will be buying a more aggressive tread. Either from yoko, or another brand.

~Kyle

1990 Toyota 4runner, White, 143k miles, Arb Bumper, Downey Torsion Bars, All Pro Offroad 1.5 inch rear coils, Wet Okole seat covers, 31x10.5 Yokohama Geolanders, Half a Yakima rack, Panasonic Head set, Alpine speakers, tinted 20%

Cool stuff: Old suspension, Un even wear on my front tires, Bad gas mileage, weak brakes, Not enough mods!

[Explorer 1]

A lot of good, useful and helpful information on this thread. My experience has been to stick with a winner and I think I have found it with the BF Goodrich Mud-Terrain T/A KM. Here is my experience for what it is worth.

About 8 years ago when I first started some serious off-roading and my Michelin all-terrain’s wore out I did a little research and purchased my first BFG Mud-Terrain’s in the original tire size for my Cherokee of 225/75R15. After a few years I added a 3-inch lift to my rig and changed to a BFG 31x10.50. Again, after a few more years I again upgraded my suspension to a 5-inch lift and went to my current 33x12.50 BFG’s.

What is interesting is not that the tires all served me well but what happened to them after I changed them out. The original 225/75R15 went to one of my daughters Honda CRV (they barely fit) for about a year and then she traded them to a family friend who had a 98 Cherokee as she wanted more of a street tire. That friend and his daily driver Cherokee have been running them ever since, mostly on road but also trips with me on some of my adventures. No idea how many miles all total on them now but we are talking 5 – 6 years of use.

The BFG 31x10.50’s went to another friend's son with a 2001 Jeep Wrangler, again his daily driver who has come on several of our trips.

In all three sets and three owners they have preformed beyond our expectations. The only complaint was with my daughter and the road noise. When all three were on my Cherokee they received plenty off road “side wall” use. They kind of remind me of the battery commercial, “They just keep on going”.

This next week end I am leading a group in the Big Bear Lake area , Heartbreak Ridge, considered somewhat difficult with some rock gardens and my friends Cherokee with the original BFG’s is coming along.


Below is a picture of my currrent BFG's in a "fix", The original one's on the Blue Cherokee and then a small movie of the 2nd set working up the dry falls in Echo Canyon.

Thanks,
Fred
Explorer 1

[eurorom]

I had the Michellin Croos terrain and LTX they were a great tire, i did off road trips with them, and I never had any problems, no flats!

However I knew i needed better off-road tires and I always wondered if they would meke a difference in performance and traction, i do not like to drive on the rain and this Michellin tires were great on the road and rain.

Well after doing some research I decided ot was time to try the All0Terrain tires, I took Mr. Brady's comments on the Yokohama Geolander AT+II to heart and seem to be the tire I was looking for, it has an agressive tire partern but it looks stock on its side walls; to me I was concern with the looks and performance of these tires!


Well after 10k miles on the geo's I am very pleased with them, they have great traction for my sand driving that i do, They have perform very good on rocks and in rain!

My friend had some Pro-Comp All-Terrain and was very desitisfied with them he could not go were I could due to poor traction!
He bought the Toyo Mud Terrain tires a great looking tire and now he can keep up with me!

I had a flat on one of my side walls that it happen on a trip to Baja, no problem that is expected!

Overall I am very satisfied with these tires and alot of people had complained on these tires getting loud after a couple of miles and some even reported on having some couping issues, however I do rotate every 3 to 4k miles.

Overall these tires are recommended!:beertoast:

Thanks Mr. Brady!

[cruiser guy]

One comment that goes without saying is DON'T run low profile tires!!

On our run this weekend the leader had a newer Toyota Prado locked and all the good stuff for off roading except he had low profile tires?!?!?

Out of 12 vehicles on Saturday and probably 15 on Sunday only he had flat tires and he had 5!! All of his flats were sidewall damage. There were the red repair patches sticking out on just about every tire!! On the last flat he got apparently the upper "A" arm ball joint popped while the tire was being repaired and we had to leave the truck behind.

[David A. Wright]

I'm partial to B.F. Goodrich All Terrain T/A tires. I'm currently on my 4th set of them. I don’t have a scientific explanation as to my preference, just experience.

Back in the 1970s and 1980s, I was running a basic 1970 Ford F-250 4WD pickup. I'd run whatever I could afford in a multi-ply bias-type truck tire and I'd get an occasional flat. By the 1980s, I switched to radial tires and noted a great improvement in durability and ride characteristics. I carried two spares in those days, each standing upright on opposite sides of the bed just behind the cab.

In 1996 I purchased a new 1996 Chevrolet S-10 4WD pickup. The truck came with Goodyear Wrangler RTS tires. A guy I know once quipped several years later that RTS stood for "Really Thin Spare." And he was right. I had nine flats in the first 10,000 miles of the truck's life; with one destroyed tire caused by a small, square edged stone that sliced the sidewall like a Ginsu knife. Nearly all flats were caused by stone punctures - the normal gravel that gets stuck in the tire treads would work their way into the carcass of the tire and eventually puncture them.

By the time of the 9th flat, I was getting pretty sick of the whole thing and started asking questions to the off-roaders on the early Death Valley themed bulletin boards, as most of them drove serious 4WD trucks or Jeeps and tackled the rocky terrain of Death Valley and the Panamint Range. The camp was pretty much split down the middle on Bridgestone Desert Dueler and BFG All Terrain T/A's. I chose the T/A's on price alone, as they were considerably cheaper at the time.

I spooned on my first set onto my Chevy S-10 with about 10,500 miles on it. The Chevy was pretty easy on its tires, as far as abnormal wear is concerned. I'd rotate the tires whenever I'd think of it, mainly in the 20,000 to 30,000 mile range. The tires never seemed to wear abnormally.

The first set of T/A’s still looked good and were still well within legal limits when I spooned on the second set of All Terrain T/A's. The truck had 98,000 miles and change on them when I put on the second set of T/A’s. I put on the new tires because I had a long trip planned that would take me all over Nevada, eastern Oregon and Idaho (you can read of that trip on my website at http://www.gbr.4wdtrips.net/trips/t2001a.htm); and I put on the new tires as a precaution.

I had no flats on the first set of T/A's. The sidewalls were well sliced and diced and had small chunks of the tread torn out of the blocky tread, especially near the edges of the tire (seems to be a normal characteristic on T/A’s).

On that particular trip in 2001, I did notice that one tire was low when I was in Winnemucca, Nevada, when I was gassing up. I then drove up the hill to WalMart and had the tire fixed. Turned out to be a stone puncture. I had just traversed about 60-80 miles of dirt roads on my way to Winnemucca. That was my only incident with that set of T/A's on my Chevrolet S-10. No actual flat tires, just that one slow leak.

I owned the Chevy S-10 until June, 2002, when I bought my current 2002 Toyota Tacoma TRD 4WD truck. When I traded in the Chevy on the Toyota, it was nearly 40,000 miles into its second set of All Terrain T/A's. The truck had almost 140,000 miles on it when I traded it in and the tires looked to be in excellent shape with the tread showing no wear.

My Toyota Tacoma came with B.F. Goodrich Trail Terrain T/A tires, which are a passenger rated tire. I had trepidations about these tires being like the Goodyear Wrangler “Really Thin Spares” that came as OEM rubber. But to their credit, they took all that I dished out at them. The sidewalls were sliced and diced, yet I experienced no flats. The Toyota has the characteristic of being rough on its front tires – if I don’t rotate tires within 3,000-5,000 miles, there’d be visible wear.

After I put about 38,000 miles on the OEM rubber that came with the Tacoma, I spooned on my first set of B.F. Goodrich All Terrain T/A’s. They were considerably more expensive than those I put on my Chevy, as the Tacoma’s tires are considerably larger.

As mentioned, the Tacoma was very hard on the tires, especially partial to rotations (I had the front end checked for alignment a couple times, each time I was told it was within normal specs). The BFG’s would wear visibly within 3,000 miles. That caused the most problems with the All Terrain T/A’s. But I experienced no flats on the original set of tires. In 2006, at Jarbidge, Nevada, I found a slow leak on one rear tire. I aired up using my 12v compressor and found over the next few days that I was loosing about 10psi per 24 hours. When I got to Wells, Nevada a few days later, I had the tire repaired at a Les Schwab tire store. They found a nail in the tread. You couldn’t see it from the outside, as the head was broken off.

In February of this year, the Tacoma went in for its big 90,000 service. I brought up the front end wear problems and the Toyota tech did a front end alignment. From that time until now, the front tires rub the inside fender when in a medium turn. Funny thing is, they don’t rub hardly at all off road. On the pavement, they rub the bottom end of the inside plastic fender liner/fender extension. They aren’t doing any damage to the tire or the liner. I took the truck back to the Toyota tech to inquire why this is, and he said that he did an “old trick.” The tires now do not wear at all between rotations, even if I let them go 7,500 miles or so. From what I can determine from Toyota techies, is that the wheels actually sit slightly rear of the center point, the cause of the rubbing. But it seems to be a good trade-off. I gladly put up with an occasional rub for far longer tire wear.

In early March, I spooned on the second set of All Terrain T/A’s with 94,196 on the Tacoma. The tires were still of adequate tread, but the ride was getting harsh, they were getting quite noisy, and caused the truck to shimmy and experience ceaseless wandering.

Prices had rose considerably – I paid $917 for a set of four total with taxes and mounting, nearly $200 more the cost of the previous set of tires. Oddly enough, my buddy, who has a 2000 Tacoma TRD 4WD, bought a new set of All Terrain T/A’s for his truck a week previous. The 2000 Tacoma ran 15” tires. They cost him $640 total. Comparing his tires and mine side by side: they are the same height. My tire is about an inch wider. It also has two more tread plies. However, he has an inch more sidewall. So I paid nearly $300 more for what amounts to a bigger donut hole. In defense of my tire dealer, he was only slightly higher for the tires than stores in Reno or southern California. I’d have spent more on gas to travel 200 miles in either direction to pick up the same tires for $50 or less for the set of four.

My truck currently is approaching 107,000 miles and the All Terrain T/A’s have worn very well. They still look new, no abnormal tread wear due to the “old trick” front end alignment. I regularly air down my tires to 18-20 psi for rocky off road use (I run 35psi on road).
The All Terrain T/A probably does not have the all out traction, I suppose, as does the Mud Terrain T/A tire, but I seldom have a mud situation in my travels. I simply lock up the diff lock and let the truck crawl over the worst obstacles I’ve aimed it at and the truck simply goes where pointed. I’ve encountered a couple of substantial mud situations in wet meadows, but the truck simply soldiers onward. On road ride is reasonably quiet (little tread howl or buzz) and has no harshness. They work excellent in snow on and off road. And they have proven to be excellent at getting 60,000-70,000 miles between tires (except on the Tacoma’s first set, which had about 56,000 miles).

For me, I’ll stick with B.F. Goodrich All Terrain T/A’s.

[calamaridog]

I've also owned the BFG AT tires. They were a good tire but very expensive.

My current tires are Yokohama Geolander ATII's on the Land Cruiser. I never rotated them front to back, just side to side. This is because I knew the fronts would wear a little funny due to the front end being lifted. The rears look great at 40,000 mi. but the fronts need replacement soon. I will replace the fronts and continue to use the rears.

These tires have excellent traction in all conditions and they are about $50 cheaper per tire than the BFG's. Unlike a MT style tire, the sidewall is not really durable. I plan on using them again, as they work well for my use.

We have Bridgestone REVO's on the Jeep and they do fine on the road, snow, rain, and mild wheeling.

[jim65wagon]

I thought I may be able to add a link to my Cooper ST thread on the Expedition Portal. Only because the ST gets so little love compared to the BFG AT.

My New Friends (http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4654&highlight=friends)

Mine are currently at 43,000 miles and should make 50,000 before I'm done. They've been excellent on and off road. I would happily buy these again...