Engine Swap or Not Swap, this is the Question

[JackSilb]

More Questions: Help will be appreciated.

- Are the 4Runner and Tacoma on the same class?
Both trucks? Both passenger cars? I almost sure the Tacoma is classified as a Truck. But I have not seen it spelled out on the license as the real trucks.

- Anybody know if any difference in the engine compartment between a 4Runner 6cyl and Tacoma 6cyl about the same year.
ex: air box location, hoses and wires, etc.

- I believe the engines are exact the same right?

Thanks,
-JACK


So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

[JackSilb]

Remember my idea of the engine swap? I need to decide on this quick. Found a ~ 30K miles engine + associated engine parts.


I called CARB - California Air Resources Board
http://www.arb.ca.gov/

They were a kind of nice on the phone, not much technical.
Basic rules verbally given.

1 - The swap need to be for the same year or newer.
2 - All the swapped engine emission control parts need to make to the swap. I am not sure how they would enforce this. Because we all will need to change something one day.
3 - The new engine needs to be California Certified. Not clear on this. I believe all Toyotas sold in the US are. Or just need to get to a referee (?). The person was not very clear.
4 - Same class of vehicle. Passenger car <-> Passenger car engine.

I asked for a document on the web. They could not point me to one.
I asked about the 4 cyl getting a 6cyl. It does not seem to be an issue. The problem is where are the official rules. You know how is the I was told so on the phone deal goes...

They gave me the referee phone number. Someone that you need to schedule an appointment to legalize your swap.
I called them. Same kind of loose rules was given including the 4 cyl vs. 6cyl. Does not seem to be a problem. This is good since these are the guys I need to give me the OK.

Were the rules specific for you?

So I went a bit more on my search.

I found the Department of Consumer Affairs
Bureau of Automotive Repair.
http://www.autorepair.ca.gov/

Their I found Engine Replacement and Rebuilding Guidelines
http://www.autorepair.ca.gov/StdPag...es-Jan_1994.htm

BELLOW ARE THE OFFICIAL RULES. ENJOY IT. Please notice that they call it guidelines not law.

Please let me know if you see a problem with my swap.

Overview
Engine changes continue to present problems and challenges to car owners and technicians. Here are some tips to keep you and your customers on the straight and narrow.

Our recommendation is to rebuild and reinstall the original engine, transmission, and emission control configuration.

When rebuilding an engine, it must be rebuilt to the original equipment specifications. However, if you do decide to change the engine, these guidelines must be observed to ensure that the vehicle will be eligible for smog certification or registration.

Remember, these are guidelines for performing engine changes -- not certification procedures. All exhaust emission controlled vehicles with engine changes must be inspected by an official referee station and must have a Bureau of Automotive Repair (BAR) Vehicle Identification Label affixed to the doorpost.

Remember also, state and federal anti-tampering laws generally prohibit any modification to the vehicle's original emission control system configuration as certified by the manufacturer. And, Section 3362.1 of the California Code of Regulations prohibits any engine change that degrades the effectiveness of a vehicle's emission control system.

California Certification
A federal Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) certified (federal or 49-state) engine cannot be used in a vehicle that was originally certified for California.

Certification Standards
Make sure the engine and emission control configuration on exhaust - controlled vehicles are certified to the year of the vehicle or newer, and to the same or a more stringent new vehicle certification standard.

Classification
Don't mix engine and vehicle classifications which will degrade the emissions certification standards. For example, a heavy-duty engine cannot be installed in a light-duty exhaust-controlled chassis even if they have the same displacement. Non-emissions controlled power plants such as industrial or off-road-use-only engines may not be placed in any exhaust-controlled vehicle.

Computer Controls
If a computer-controlled engine is installed in a non-computerized vehicle, the "CHECK ENGINE" light, the Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) diagnostic link, and all sensors, switches, and wiring harnesses needed to make the system fully functional must also be installed.

Emission Control Configuration
Mixing and matching emission control system components could cause problems and is generally not allowed. Engine and emission control systems must be in an engine-chassis configuration certified by the California Air Resources Board (ARB) or U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). The engine must meet or exceed the requirements for the year and class of vehicle in which it is installed.

Emission Warranty
Voiding the vehicle manufacturer's emission warranty is not allowed.

Engine Modifications
No internal or external engine modifications (cams, pistons, intakes, etc.) may be performed unless the parts are ARB-exempted or EPA-certified for use in the installed engine. Use the database on this site to search for aftermarket parts covered by ARB Executive Orders.

Original Equipment
The installed engine and host chassis must retain all of their original emission control equipment. Diesel-to-gasoline conversions must have all gasoline engine and chassis emission control systems installed (such as fillpipe restrictor, catalytic converter and evaporative emission system).

Smog Inspection
These vehicles must pass a complete smog inspection (visual, functional, and tailpipe).

</div>


So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net


Post Edited (JackSilb) : 11/20/2003 1:52:37 AM GMT

[WhiteThaiGer]

3 - The new engine needs to be California Certified. Not clear on this. I believe all Toyotas sold in the US are. Or just need to get to a referee (?). The person was not very clear

I don't think so. Mine does not have some of those CA stickers, I bought it in NM. Remember the $300 one had to pay to bring a car into CA? They told me than that's because the cars don't meet CA standards....

Your's was not sold in CA originally either, right?

Did you talk to Jim at Protrux? I just talked to him about engine swap this morning, but not in that much detail. I was there for an oil change/lube (too lazy to do it here) and we talked. He has a truck in the garage right now where they are putting a 3.4l engine in. We even talked about you. 'Jack, isn't that the guy with the tiny 4cyl?' http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif


***************************************
http://www.confluence.org
http://www.usgo.org

[BajaTaco]

Jack, this sounds like a HUGE project to me. I was under the impression that you were a very busy guy? http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/headscratch.gif

The CA emmissions "referee" thing sounds like a headache waiting to happen. What if you get someone who enjoys a "power trip" and thinks you need to suffer or you are getting away with something...

sorry, I shouldn't be so negative... it's not like me! http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/blush.gif


http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

[BajaTaco]

OK, I went away for a bit and got ahold of myself...

Jack - on second thought - Uwe has a point... there are probably at least a thousand off-road fab shops in southern california, ProTrux being only one of them. Go to as many as you can, or call them, and pretend that you want to turn your daily driver into a beastly, long-travel, dirt eating, bump soaking machine and you will spare no expense, but you want to stick with the Toy V6 engine since you will be doing commuting and lots of highway trips... see what they know about the in's and out's of getting it legal for the street.

I'll bet it's easy. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif


http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

[GoodTimes]

Jack, I just spent over 1/2 hour typing a reply to all your questions. Then when I hit submit, the site had logged me off, and the post was lost!!! http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/banghead.gif Is there a way to stop the site from logging me off while I am typing replies? I never remember to copy them before hitting <<reply>>.


olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

[MrS]

JackSilb said...

- Are the 4Runner and Tacoma on the same class?
Both trucks? Both passenger cars? I almost sure the Tacoma is classified as a Truck. But I have not seen it spelled out on the license as the real trucks.
Your 4Runner and a Tacoma are truck based, so they are the same. Trouble would be if you tried to install the 3.4 in the toyota mini-ute.

Body style (on your pink slip) lists a Tacoma as PU = Pickup. I think the 4Runner is SW = Stationwagon



KF6YSB

[GoodTimes]

Ok, I lost another post. I guess this site doesn't want me to post any actual informationin this thread.
</div>


olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

[WhiteThaiGer]

GoodTimes said...
Ok, I lost another post. I guess this site doesn't want me to post any actual informationin this thread.

</div>
Hm, I wonder if there is something with the connection to your ISP.I haven't had problems in a long time. Anyone else having problems?

If it's this bad, and we are missing all the good information you are composing, maybe you can write it in notepad (if you use Windows) and then copy-n-paste.

Make copying a habit, even if I don't have problems I still copy before submitting...http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/rolleyes.gif just can't trust Jack's forum http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/joker1.gif


***************************************
http://www.confluence.org
http://www.usgo.org

[JackSilb]

GoodTimes said...
Jack, I just spent over 1/2 hour typing a reply to all your questions. Then when I hit submit, the site had logged me off, and the post was lost!!! http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/banghead.gif Is there a way to stop the site from logging me off while I am typing replies? I never remember to copy them before hitting <<reply>>.
</div>I am so sorry. Reaally sorry. I know your pain.
I was under the impression that this problem was gone. No?
Don't know what the problem is.
When it happened with me in the past I just pressed the go back buttom from Intener explorer. The text was still there. Then I cut and pasted again when the site was alive.
Give it a try next time. Besides always copying the text when it gets big Ctrl-C.
Sorry again.
-JACK



So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

[JackSilb]

Yea, blame the Brazilian.
I have not seen the problem since the upgrade for the new server. It is running like a Toyota.. I needed to say this.
-JACK


So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

[JackSilb]

OK folks,

Sorry I was not clear before.
I would not take this project alone. It takes me 1+ hours just to change the oil of my 4Runner (setup time and cleaning included of course). As you can see it would take me a year+ and would not happen.

Jim from ProTrux is my man on this effort. He is really interested in doing the swap since nobody is doing this swap. He can learn on my truck. He will make a special deal on the labor for me +++++ sell my 2.7 engine and parts. See how I am not that crazy?

Hey, I got contacted by the person that is selling the parts. The transmission and Xcase now are also available. Will they fit the 4Runner? They are from a Tacoma.

I will contact Jim again to make sure he will be ready for me IF I make the decision. Too many people telling me not to do this. Just can stop thinking about this project.

I would like to take a closer look side by side on MrS and MrsS Tacoma this weekend. Just wondering on the location of parts. From what I saw on Marcelo's it looks almost the same. Power break, air box intake, etc. Lets play detective during this weekend.

THANK you all for the help. Expect GoodTimes with these excuses.

-JACK
</div>


So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

[BajaTaco]

OK Jack, that sounds better. If you have ProTrux lined up, and it is something they are really interested in doing, then I can see it happening.

I would think that everything should fit (trans and t-case too) without too much trouble at all. You might need to do something with the driveshaft lengths.. not sure. But the only way to find out for sure is to crawl under there with a camera, a tape measure, pen and paper and do the comparison. You should have plenty of V6 Tacos to look at.


http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

[JackSilb]

BajaTaco said...
OK Jack, that sounds better. If you have ProTrux lined up, and it is something they are really interested in doing, then I can see it happening.

I would think that everything should fit (trans and t-case too) without too much trouble at all. You might need to do something with the driveshaft lengths.. not sure. But the only way to find out for sure is to crawl under there with a camera, a tape measure, pen and paper and do the comparison. You should have plenty of V6 Tacos to look at.
</div>I can see this happening this weekend. With that much expertise around me I see a decision happening on the spot. MrS. please bring the 007 Taco to the party OK?

-JACK



So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

[GoodTimes]

Ok, here goes again (short version).

Jack, your 4-runner is considered a 'car'. The Tacoma is considered a 'truck'. You cannot legally put a 'truck' engine in your 'car' if you plan on driving it on a public road in California. This was the story back in '98, it may have changed, but be sure to check it out. Also, if your 4-runner was originally built to be sold in California, you cannot put a engine in it from a vehicle that was not originally from California, no matter what year it is from. But you can put a california engine in a non-california vehicle.

What year is the new engine? It must be equil to or greater than your 4-runner, and must include all emissions controls, and the PCM. The transmission in your 4-runner and the doner vehicle must be the same type (manual or automatic), or you must also swap the transmissions (the PCM will not work correctly otherwise). If they are both automatics, then they must be the same model number too (or swap them). If you do change from a manual to automatic of from a automatic to a manual transmission, remember the added costs of a new steering column, tranny cooler (if putting in a automatic), cutting a hole for the shift lever (if going to a manual), etc.

Don't forget you should at least have your radiator cleaned out, or better yet, put a bigger radiator in.

Jim (Pro-trux) should have a good idea about what is involved, and the legality of it all. But do yourself a favor, and double check before he starts. In the end, it is your responsibility, since it is your rig and your $$$.

Now cross your fingers and hope this works this time.


olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

[MrS]

JackSilb said... MrS. please bring the 007 Taco to the party OK?OK, I had not planned on driving it, but will now.

Have you done a Goggle (or some kind) of search. I would think someone has done this.

Since Tacomas are build in Calif. Most come CA and NY smog ready, since Ca is where most vehicles are sold.There is a code for CA Smog (I don't know it) on the glove box sticker, you should check the Az truck and see, it may have been smog ready. By 2001 most states have some kind of smog rules on new vehicles and those rules are catching up with CA, so it cheaper (in some cases) to just build one basic vehicle that meets the highest standards and sell it everywhere. This is one reason you have to pay a $100 (or something) smog fee in Ca &amp; NY, and $300 to import a vehicle.

You need to be 100% on this, otherwise you are going to end up with one nice off-road only rig.

KF6YSB

[MrS]

GoodTimes said...

....If they are both automatics, then they must be the same model number too (or swap them). If you do change from a manual to automatic of from a automatic to a manual transmission, remember the added costs of a new steering column, tranny cooler (if putting in a automatic), cutting a hole for the shift lever (if going to a manual), etc.

Don't forget you should at least have your radiator cleaned out, or better yet, put a bigger radiator in.PERFECT, these are just the type of small details I was talking to you (Jack) about on the phone. I'm sure Toyota has everything you need for this swap, but I'm not so sure you will get ALL the parts you need for a 4Rer on a Taco.

Heck, it could be easier to find a roller 4Rer same year as yours with a good frame and good V6 running gear, and just swap your body.

http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/headscratch.gifhttp://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/headscratch.gif

KF6YSB

[BajaTaco]

MrS said...


...4Rer same year as yours with a good frame and good V6 running gear,
Too many miles. This Taco only has 30K on it.

Jack, Goodtimes brought up alot of good food for thought![/quote]


http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

[JackSilb]

Hello,

I went to ProTrux this morning. I learned a lot more. Spoke with the "swapper guy".
The best is to buy the rollover and leave it there with my 4Runner. There are way too many details that we can miss. For instance, the wires from the panel to the computer. I was not counting on getting it this time. Moreover, the Taco I was looking for is auto. Mine 4Runner is manual. As GoodTimes said, thereare a lot of details and work to get it going. Make it reliable would be very hard.

I am putting a stop on this plan for now. ProTrux would not be able to work on my 4Runner until feb+.

Well, one more time, I just need to be happy with my "highway boring" 4cyl.

At the other end, I can save this money for my TLC. Or for the house. Huh hard decision.
-JACK
</div>


So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

[expeditionswest]

Jack,</div>
</o:p></div>
I thought I would throw out a few ideas given the scale of this project.</div>
</o:p></div>
I have performed on complete engine swap from a 4cyl to an 8cyl, and thought that a few lessons I learned along the way might be valuable. </div>
</o:p></div>
1. Cost- The engine swap I performed ended up costing me three times more than I had originally planned, mostly due to the havoc that 300hp caused to the rest of the drivetrain. It was amazing the cost of the small parts that added up, custom mounts, relocating shifters, electronics interface (your tach will not read correctly, etc.) The cost of the motor will likely be less than half of your total cost. Especially if you wont be performing the swap yourself. Here is something to think about.</div>
</o:p></div>
The KBB value of your 4runner- $9720 4cyl 1998</div>
</o:p></div>
The KBB value of the 4runner you are trying to build- $18,420 6cyl 2000 (50,000 miles)</div>
</o:p></div>
This is a difference of only $8,000 dollars, and you would end up with a newer vehicle, with less total miles on the drivetrain. You could buy the new truck (that would have a factory locker in it), and transfer over the parts that you want to keep, and then sell your truck. </div>
</o:p></div>
Another important consideration is that a vehicle with an engine swap (or any major system modification) is worth significantly less than a vehicle that came from the factory that way. You could loose 3-4,000 in resale value.</div>
</o:p></div>

<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Reliability- As a systems engineer, you know about the reliability of products that are designed and built as a system. With every modification we make, there are new variables introduced. How do you know that the motor you replace yours with is as reliable as the one you removed, as you have no history (alternator, water pump, starter, etc.). The assembly quality of a repair shop is never the same a Mr. Toyoda. They have systems in place that ensure the <st1:City><st1:place>Toyota quality we expect. Pok a yok, Kaizen, Lean Manufacturing, Line stop authority systems are in place only at the OEM.
</o:p></div>
I don’t mean to disparage your idea, I just wanted to give you a perspective from a different point of view.</div>
</o:p></div>
Take care!</o:p></div>

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

[GoodTimes]

Good points Scott.

Although I would not complain if I never heard the words "Pok a yok, Kaizen, Lean Manufacturing, &amp;/or Six Sigma" again.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/freaked.gif Too many nightmares.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Jack, if you are looking to increase your hiway performance more than your off road performance, have you considered a forced induction system for the 4 cyl? It isn't too uncommon to get a 40 - 50 hp increase along with a 40% increase in torque by adding one. If you add a intercooler, you can get even more. The kits are not that expensive (~$3000 - $4000), and Toyota even makes them for some applications (not sure which applications, but I do know that their TuRD division does make and sell them). People I have talked to are very happy with theirs. They won't do much for you off road, but will help on the freeway. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/idea.gif


olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

[Rockcrawler]

GoodTimes said...
Then when I hit submit, the site had logged me off, and the post was lost!!! http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/banghead.gif Is there a way to stop the site from logging me off while I am typing replies?
</div>Um... learn to type faster??? http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/rofl.gif




http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/smashfreakb.gif


"Paved Roads: Another example of wasteful government spending." KD7UEH

[JackSilb]

You guys a coorect. The idea is dead.
-JACK
p.s. Scott my 4Runner is 1996.


So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

[expeditionswest]

Jack,

I have a suggestion on you vehicle situation. You should spend a few minutes specifying your needs in a vehicle in order of importance. When you are done there will be a vehicle that meets the top three. You will have to compromise on the others somewhat, but you will have the vehicle that can transport you and your family to most of the places you want to go.

Example:

1. Payload of 1,600 lbs (remember gear and people)
2. Be able to carry two adults, three kids, and two dogs in relative comfort (lots of passenger room)
3. Be able to drive unsupported for 5+ days (lots of gear capacity)
4. Be able to run 3.5+ runs
5. Reasonable priced

In this case, if you compromise on 5, you would by an H1. if you compromise on 4, your would buy an excursion (not a bad vehicle by the way). Your greatest influencing factor is people and equipment, which precludes you from buying a small/nimble SUV that would allow for rough/tight trails. If you want to run really rough trails, you will have to give up #1 and #3.

Figure out what is really important to you and go from there. Or you could do like me, and have an entire fleet, which creates lots of issues in its own right.

We should spend some time talking about this more next weekend.

Scott

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

[MrS]

JackSilb said.... The idea is dead.


So you don't need to see my truck? Since I'm not going out exploring, I'd rather not drive the Taco.

KF6YSB

[GoodTimes]

Scott Brady said...
...2. Be able to carry two adults, three kids, and two dogs in relative comfort (lots of passenger room)...Hmmm. You apparently have not read the trip report from went Jack and Baja did some exploring in the Sierra Nevada's. Lets just say that there was no one travelling in comfort on that trip....well, unless they held their breath until they were 20 feet away from the 4-runner.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/rofl.gif


olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

[JackSilb]

OK Steve, no need to drive the Taco.

So we won't have a drive on Sunday then?


-JACK


So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

[JackSilb]

Hi Scott,
</div>
Thanks for your note.
I believe I know what I want and need, the TLC.

The 4Runner swap was just to make it fun to drive and play. I would still get another vehicle to fit the family, after the house, one day ...

-JACK</div>
</div>


So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net