Expedition / Adventure Vehicle Discussion [Archive]

expeditionswest

10-26-2003, 06:20PM

I am starting a new topic. Maybe some of you can shed some light or benefiton all of this. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/hitting.gif

Building the right vehicle(s) is quite a challenge. I have attempted to reach a compromise in the past, which has always resulted in a vehicle that doesnt do anything well, and costs big $$$. I have built way too many vehicles (for those interested in the list go here http://www.expeditionswest.com/vehicles/past_ew_vehicles/index.html), all in an attempt to have trail capability, on road comfort, and enough space to carry all of my crap (which is WAY too much). I have really learned a lot along the way, but I have spent way too much time and money on these vehicles. I am trying to focus more on the experience, not the vehicle...http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/smashfreakb.gif
</o:p>
So along the lines of what Chris said. You either need to limit your pursuits, or expand your inventory of vehicles. I have expanded my inventory, which has been a mixed blessing. The time and $$ required to maintain four vehicles is pretty daunting.</o:p>
</o:p>
I enjoy three types of off highway travel, which really require three types of vehicles.</o:p>
</o:p>
3.5+ trails (1-5 scale) - Requires a SWB vehicle, with HD drive train, low gears, locking differentials, recovery equipment, protection, and ground clearance. I built the Jeep (YJ) for this, but it is uncomfortable on the highway, and has minimal GVW / Storage for expedition travel. When I ran the Rubicon in August we went ULTRA light, and didn’t bring the trailer. For a week trip the vehicle was floor to ceiling. The Jeep works well on most difficult trails up to the 4.5+ range.</o:p>
</o:p>
1-3.5+ trails- Just about anyhigh clearance4wd will work for this. But the focus should be on comfort and reliability. This will probably be the vehicle to take through box canyon on Sunday, and to work on Monday. You take your family in it because it is comfortable and reliable. It should get reasonable mileage, etc. I have the Discovery II, and Trooper for this, and they work great.</o:p>
</o:p>
Expedition Travel- There have been entire books written on this subject. Tom Sheppards Vehicle Dependent Expedition Guide is probably the best (300+ pages). I think the distance and difficulty of the terrain really affect the decision here. Reliability and serviceability is a major factor. A Tacoma/Frontier/Mid Sized SUV is a good choice for mixed to difficult terrain, but you have to limit your equipment because of a limited GVW. A Tundra/Ford gives you more GVW and space, but could be tight on tough trails. Then there is the dedicated equipment like the Unimog/Unicat, Turtle Expedition, and Earthroamer vehicles. They are interesting to evaluate, but the cost of admission is big $$$. I am sure many of you have seen these vehicles, but here are the links…</o:p>
</o:p>
Unicat- http://www.unicat.net/en/indexe.htmlhttp://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/supercool.gif
Earthroamer- http://www.earthroamer.com/main_truck/vehicles.htmlhttp://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/supercool.gif
Turtle Expedition- http://www.turtleexpedition.com/vehicles/turtle5.htm</o:p>
I am going to take my time on this one, and will probably start a project in late 2004. </o:p>
</o:p>
Here are a few platforms that are interesting:</o:p>
Tundra SR5 Regular Cab Long Bed with a Fourwheeler Camper (http://www.fourwheelcampers.com/ (http://www.fourwheelcampers.com/))- More living spacehttp://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/yeah.gif
New Tundra Crew Cab- Big truck, big $$$, but very reliable with lots of occupant and living space. Would need a lift and big tires to compensate for break over angle.</o:p>
Tacoma Crew Cab with Fourwheeler camper- More occupant spacehttp://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/yeah.gif
Tacoma extended Cab- Nice compromise </o:p>
Ford F350- Probably too big, and just not me…</o:p>
Cargo Body- Interesting “shell” concept. http://www.cargobody.com/texan.htm</o:p>
</o:p>
</o:p>
</o:p>So this is one man’s rant.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/banghead.gif I am curious what all of you think…
</div>

Post Edited By Moderator (JackSilb) : 10/26/2003 9:45:37 PM GMT

JackSilb

10-26-2003, 10:01PM

Hello,

I am loving this discussion. It will help me and others I am sure!
Here is what I have in mind.

Requirements:
- Family of 5 and two dogs for some trips. They don't really want to come on all the trips.
- Capability to sleep inside the truck (not necessarily 5 people).
- Capability to hold a week of so supplies.
- Comfort on highway.
- About 13+ MPG.
- Ideally would use diesel. But I can't find Toyotas in the US that support this. In Brazil it would not be a problem.
- Capable for 3.5 trails. At least one of the vechile(s).

- Be able to drive the vehicles to work
- No more than two vehicles dedicated to safest above requirements.

At this point if I could just go get what I want I would get:

a) A Toyota Land Cruiser 96 or 97 with lockers and all the reliable mods you see for TLC.
I would use the TLC for family weekends trips and 3+ trails (that would allow a wide truck).

b) A Tundra just like in the picture bellow. TRD Locker, lift, tires, the usual things.
I would use the Tundra for expedition type trips.

I am not sure my family would fit in the Tacoma. We have a hard time having 3 in the back sit of the 4Runner. The baby chair takes a lot of space.
The Tacoma setup bellow would be nice for a smaller family.

-JACK

</div>

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

Post Edited (JackSilb) : 10/26/2003 10:18:26 PM GMT

BajaTaco

10-27-2003, 03:09PM

Great discussion guys. I already put my .02 cents in the other thread, but I will narrow it down even more, to...

WEIGHT and MASS.

That's pretty much it when we are talking about mixing 4wd trails with long road trips. At one extreme end of the spectrum, you have the Winnebago RV and at the other end you have the tube frame rock buggy. Have fun finding your place in the middle http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif As all of us have found out, it's not easy.

Jack, all of those vehicles you showed us look really nice, but I don't really see any of them doing the trail that you and I will be doing this weekend. I am thinking that if you can have 2 vehicles, you should focus one for family trips (where you will resolve to keep it to more mild 4wd trails and roads) and one for weekends like we have coming up.My guess is that after you leavethe 4runnerin Brasil, you will miss all of the fun trails you used to do with it unless you have another vehicle that is capable of it. As I have suggested before, I think the TLC would be good for family trips if you put a roof-top tent on it and carried another tent for the kids. You could put cargo bins/sliding trays in the back for your fridge and gear. Hmmm, but that is no room for the dogs.

I think you should stick to a smaller GVW/wheelbase vehicle for thetrips that you will be traveling alone or with only one other member of your family. The 4runner or a Tacoma is perfect, and you can make it so that you can sleep in the back of the vehicle (2 people). This will allow you to have extra fun with the 4wd that I know you will probably miss if you give up this kind of capability.

Scott, I would be interested to hear what kind of plans you might have brewing! You certainly have quite a track record with the vehicles!

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

GoodTimes

10-27-2003, 06:57PM

Jack, you need two things. A taco set up like 007, or Dave, or Baja have thiers for the "solo" trips. Then you need a suburban sized vehicle for the family trips. Something with fold down rear seats so you can sleep there, and a roof rack for all your stuff (or for the kids when they complain too much http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/joker1.gif ).

Something else you should keep in mind, is how the timeframe for these vehicles will affect your needs. For example, if you are thinking about getting a family size road trip vehicle 5 years from now, how big will it need to be? IE, will your kids be going with you, or will they be driving their own vehicles, or will they be going away to college and not going on the trips at all? Just something to make this all the more confusing.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/lol.gif
</div>

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

BajaTaco

10-27-2003, 08:15PM

Scott posted some big rig links...

Hereis another if you haven't seen it - http://www.actionmobil.com/- they make big off-road RV's.

There are lots out there... also, I was thinking, Scott - did you ever see the Wanderlust Unimog that Jim and Lisa were selling? I just checked their website, but it looks like maybe they took it offline? They had a really nice Mog camper for sale.
</div>

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

Post Edited (BajaTaco) : 10/27/2003 8:18:52 PM GMT

expeditionswest

10-28-2003, 01:57AM

I have considered several larger vehicle solutions, like the Unimog's, etc. The main constraint for me is the size. I don’t want to be restricted to roads and wide tracks. The large, elaborate RV type expedition vehicles certainly have the curb appeal though.</o:p></div>
I have learned a few things on my journey through vehicledom:</o:p></div>
1. The “total package” vehicle does not exist. </o:p></div>
You have to design and build a vehicle for the specific terrain/environment you intend to travel, or be content with limitations. For example, limited trail difficulty, or limited GVW, etc.</o:p></div>
The closest I have seen is an FJ80 Land Cruiser. But you still have a lot of body panels waiting for trail damage. There were several of these vehicles on the Rubicon in August when I ran the trail, and most of them had body damage of some type. The Discovery is another good choice, but you will never be able to run a 4.5 trail without major damage, and the vehicle suffers from reliability problems. </o:p></div>
If I could only have one vehicle, it would be the FJ80 TLC with factory lockers. You can fit 35” tires with a 3” lift, and there is a lot of aftermarket support.</o:p></div>
2. You have to start with the right platform. I have spent a lot of money trying to build/modify in performance and reliability that should have come from the factory. You will never get FJ80 performance from an S10 blazer.</o:p></div>
3. It is better for it to be “reliable/functional” than “cool”. This is a tough one for most. That is why people install fake bead lock rims, 50 lights, and countless other “gizmos” that detract from the original equipment functionality and engineering of the vehicle. I have been guilty of this before (machined aluminum valve covers, and remote shock controller, and others I am too embarrassed to mention!!!). The majority of the failures I have seen on the trail are related to aftermarket modifications that were operating outside of the design limits of the vehicle. </o:p></div>
So instead of me mentioning the vehicle/modifications I think I need, I am going to list the specifications I have for the vehicle, and have you all tell me what you think I should buy and what mods needs to be performed. It will be an interesting exercise, and removes my prejudicesas a variable…</o:p></div>
Expedition Vehicle Specifications: </o:p></div>
There are a few guidelines. No trailers. I currently use a VenturCraft Trailer for sleeping, changing and extra payload, but I want to eliminate this option. Trailers present to many limitations and additional failure points.</o:p></div>
1. Comfort for extended periods behind the wheel for two adults (tall), A/C, good seats, etc.</o:p></div>
2. Cabin access to the following equipment:</o:p></div>
a. Camera equipment (lots)</o:p></div>
b. Navigation equipment (laptop, maps, guidebooks)</o:p></div>
3. Decent Power to Weight ratio (sand, freeway speed/climbs)http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/gottogo.gif </div>
4. Able to carry the following unsupported for 14+ days:</o:p></div>
a. Food (Engle Fridge)</o:p></div>
b. Kayaks</o:p></div>
c. 500+ mile road range</o:p></div>
d. Water</o:p></div>
e. Food preparation</o:p></div>
f. Shower (spouse requirement)</o:p></div>
g. Toilet (spouse requirement)</o:p></div>
h. Camp comfort (chairs, tables, etc.)</o:p></div>
i. Recovery and spares</o:p></div>
j. Tools</o:p></div>
5. Able to sleep two people comfortably in or on the vehicle, with easy set-up and teardown. I am looking for more room and comfort than most, and am willing to pay for it (it keeps my travel partner happy). http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/wink.gif </div>
6. Able to traverse a 3.5 trail, like C-Gap or Ajax or “the toughest road in Baja”.</o:p></div>
7. Reliable and serviceable, with spares available remotely</o:p></div>
8. Traction to all four wheels</o:p></div>
9. Aftermarket protection available (bumpers, rocker skids, etc.)</o:p></div>
10. Can operate reliably and comfortably in all four seasons. –10 to +115</o:p></div>
Budget: $45,000</o:p></div>So, there it is. Scott’s dream vehicle. What should I do…http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/headscratch.gif

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

BajaTaco

10-28-2003, 05:17AM

Wow. I am seriously not trying to "promote" my Tacoma (really!) but it comes very close to meeting your list. The deficiencies are:

1. Cabin space for alot of photo and laptop equipment. The xcab does have alot of space behind the seats, but that is where you will need to put your fridge. You also mentioned "tall" adults, so your fridge would probably be limited to the 40 litre size. The forward part of the cabin is comfortable, but cramped as far as room for equipment (you'll see my truck - I would be hard pressed to fit a laptop with 2 people in there).

2. Power to weight ratio - actually if I were to put a little deeper gearing in my truck, this would be fine (I have 4:10 stock gearing with 32" tires). More like strength to weight ratio - I am loaded close to GVW when outfitted for a trip, so the load and caution applied on the trail are dependant on one another and must be considered where frame strength, drivetrain components, etc. are concerned. (but this is really only a concern for very technical trails).

3. Toilet. I'm not sure where you would put it. It might be akward on the roof rack.

Other than that, you have pretty well described my truck. We were able to determine that we could stay out in the sticks self-contained for about 2 weeks depending on availability of water. If we could obtain water for washing and showers without tapping our potable water very often, 2 weeks is do-able.

Something you must understand though, is that my wife and I know how to travel as "minimalists" so the Taco for a 2 week trip would not have alot of "luxury" items that some campers might be used to (big stove, lanterns, and stuff like that). We can make a very comfy camp though.

My truck can do 3.5 trails loaded for a trip, but as mentioned above - I could probably do more with 1 weeks supplies than I could with 2 (as far as pushing the vehicle goes). If I added an ARBfront lockerand used it wisely, the capability would be all that much more.

I think you should seriously consider a Tacoma Xtracab. And I'm not being biased! A TLC would be my second choice for your criteria, but it is a much heavier vehicle, and the new ones have IFS which I might be concerned about with the vehicle loaded up so much. Maybe it isn't an issue - You and Doron would probably know better than me. The older ones (solid axle) will have age and mileage against them where the reliability issues are concerned. (may not be an issue, but it might, depending). Also, what kind of gas mileage do they get when loaded up and on the trail/highway? A TLC would probably be VERY comfy.
</div>

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

Post Edited (BajaTaco) : 10/28/2003 5:24:26 AM GMT

BajaTaco

10-28-2003, 05:44AM

Oh yeah, about the budget...

Let's just run off some quick ball park figures here (considering that you will do most of the work yourself - gears and locker probably being the exception)...

$24,000 - New truck price (incl. rear locker)
$1,500 - Suspension upgrades (lift)
$800 - tires
$1,500 - gears
$650 - ARB front locker
$450 - Air Compressor & accessories
$1,100 - bumpers
$350 - skid plate
$350 - rock sliders
$700 - Aux. fuel tank
$750 - fridge and mount/wiring/thermometer
$500 - dual battery setup
$1,200 - camper shell
$300 - camper improvements (self-installed)
$600 - roof rack with accessories/mounts
$250 - off-road lighting
$500 - misc. recovery equipment
$500 - misc. tools
$650 - radios (stereo, CB, VHF)
$150 - misc. wiring upgrades (self-installed)
_____
$36,800 (I'm sure I forgot something http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif )

Ok, this leaves $8,200. That means you could install a Marlin Crawler dual-case setup if you want! (They only run about $3,500 installed). Or, you could do a solid axle conversion if that strikes your fancy. Looks like you are within budget, even when you consider thelikely couple of thousand dollars of incidental items I am overlooking.

</div>

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

expeditionswest

10-28-2003, 04:29PM

Chris,

Thanks for the detailed response to my question! I have always loved the Toyota solution. Hopefully I can see your truck soon to better evaluate the option.

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

JackSilb

10-29-2003, 04:00AM

BajaTaco said...
Scott posted some big rig links...

Hereis another if you haven't seen it - http://www.actionmobil.com/- they make big off-road RV's.

There are lots out there... also, I was thinking, Scott - did you ever see the Wanderlust Unimog that Jim and Lisa were selling? I just checked their website, but it looks like maybe they took it offline? They had a really nice Mog camper for sale.

</div>
Baja,

This is the one we need to rent to explore Africa. I loved it!

I havethe followingtrips that I want to do in my life. Not in any particular order.
- South America
- Africa
- British Columbia & Alaska
- Australia
- Newzeland

Should we start the 5 years plan?
Maybe each two years we can hit one of these places.

-JACK
[/quote]

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

JackSilb

10-29-2003, 04:52AM

Uh baby, now we are talking.
I am loving this discussion!

In a near future I hope to be buying another vehicle. Pending on getting a house first. Therefore, this discussion will really help me.

GoodTimes, you have a point. The kids don't want to come to the trips that often. And of course, Georgia just need this reason for not coming too. But for longer exploration trips they may come with the right incentives. The kids are still a good 5 years out before leaving home.
It is most likely that I will start to bring one kid and Eric. Maybe just Eric (2 years old) alone. So the extra cab will not cut for the smaller vehicle.

Baja, why do you think that the TLC would no make the trails that we did in Moab and would not do the one we will be doing during this weekend?

Anyway, I see your point. I may need to keep a smaller option around.
Can two people sleep on the back of a Tacoma double cab? I don't know the dimensions. I imagine that I would need to keep the gate open.

Bob does lots of exploration with the Yukon. I believe that the larger vehicle would be more for the ~2.5 roads/trails. Still something nice for the family.

I am glad I have time this think about this.

-JACK
</div>

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

BajaTaco

10-29-2003, 05:11AM

Jack, I don't think I chose my words vey well. I think the TLC is very capable and could do the trails we did in Moab and that we will do this weekend.

When I said ..."Jack, all of those vehicles you showed us look really nice, but I don't really see any of them doing the trail that you and I will be doing this weekend." , I was referring to the 3 small pictures and links you posted, which were for 2 different Tundras, and a Tacoma, all of them with heavy, bulkycampers (although quite compact for a full camper). I wasn't talking about the TLC.
</div>

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

WhiteThaiGer

10-29-2003, 05:39AM

I finally took some time to catch up on this thread...

Of course I like the MAN and Unimogs, they remind me of 'home' http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/wink.gif That MAN that Baja pointed to looks like those trucks the German military uses.

I'd take one of those of Scott's dream vehicles, I could not have come up with a better list, the only item I do not require (yet http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/smilewinkgrin.gif ) is thekayak option. The spouse requirements have not come up here yet either, but I haven't shown the list to the spouse yet and once she sees it I won't have a chance any more. I really like the 'tall' requirement. And with the price tag it would also be something of a realistic dream in contrast to the expedition monsters.

Now if we would get a bunch of the Scott's vehicles and Jack gets that MAN to carry some extra stuff... http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/hop.gif we could plan some serious expeditions!

***************************************
http://www.confluence.org
http://www.usgo.org

JackSilb

10-29-2003, 09:10AM

Thanks Baja,

Just need support to get that 96~97 TLC ..
-JACK

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

MrS

10-29-2003, 07:59PM

BajaTaco said...

$24,000 - New truck price (incl. rear locker)
$1,500 - Suspension upgrades (lift)
$800 - tires
$1,500 - gears
$650 - ARB front locker
$450 - Air Compressor & accessories
$1,100 - bumpers
$350 - skid plate
$350 - rock sliders
$700 - Aux. fuel tank
$750 - fridge and mount/wiring/thermometer
$500 - dual battery setup
$1,200 - camper shell
$300 - camper improvements (self-installed)
$600 - roof rack with accessories/mounts
$250 - off-road lighting
$500 - misc. recovery equipment
$500 - misc. tools
$650 - radios (stereo, CB, VHF)
$150 - misc. wiring upgrades (self-installed)

Priceless - Anti dust systemhttp://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/baja_rofl.gif

Not much to add. Baja & GT are the leaders on this subject, with Dave, Al, Jack & Uwe bring up a solid 2nd. Other's may have killer exploring rigs on this site, I just haven't seen them yet. I think YB has something in the works.
Fun subject

http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/joker1.gif

KF6YSB

expeditionswest

10-30-2003, 12:00AM

Chris,</div>
For your fridge, you mention a mount andthermostat. What are you using for a thermostat? That is a great idea, and will work better than my usual set it to 4 and let it run. What did you use for a mount. I have seen several aftermarket kits with rollers, etc. I have one Engle 42 quart, and one ARB 42 quart. They are both essentially the same, but the Engle has a few nice additions. I love those units, and would recommend them to anyone. No more soggy sandwiches. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/supercool.gif </div>
Scott</div>

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

BajaTaco

10-30-2003, 04:02AM

Steve - uhhhh... I think you forgot one.

Scott - meet Steve (007). Steve, meet Scott (expeditions west). Steve has one of the premier expedition rigs on this site (and he's a fun guy to boot - haha). He has a Xcab Tacoma (but it's the wrong colorhttp://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/lol.gif)Now that I think of it - Scott, I mentioned putting your fridge in the xcab, but if you have the 42 quart units, talk to Steve about his - he has a 42 quart unit in the back - and he and his wife sleep back there too. You also have to see his "anti-dust" system. He pressurizes his camper so NO dust can get in. Too cool. I have some of his stuff on my website...

http://www.bajataco.com/zr2steve/ZR2Steve.html

... but there is alot more. He has lots of storage space set up in his xcab.

Yea, Steve - you need to give a little input here - help us out pal.

Scott, regarding the mounting system - it's on page 3 (http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/?f=12&p=3&m=2890)of the "Baja's mod forum" in the mods section of this site. I ended up building my own custom mounts for the fridge.

Regarding the thermometer I added (it's not a thermostat) that is also in the same thread - page 1, the very first post (http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/?f=12&m=2890&p=1) - item #4. It's a great way to monitor the fridge (and the voltage on the aux. battery).

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

expeditionswest

10-30-2003, 04:27AM

Chris,

WOW! Lots of very well designed modifications. I am very impressed. Now I have to see your truck...

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

MrS

10-30-2003, 05:09PM

BajaTaco said...

Yea, Steve - you need to give a little input here - help us out pal.I think doing everything on your list would make for a good rig. I just have a few things Anita and I need (want) first.

KF6YSB

expeditionswest

10-30-2003, 07:01PM

While we are on the Tacoma discussion.</div>
Do any of you know this guy (fourbychef)?
http://www.expeditionswest.com/53002948CcZrEA_ph.jpg</div>
This is his website http://www.members.cox.net/ktontacoma/index.htm</div>
He has a very interesting Tacoma, and I am curious about his long term success with the SAS. Something like this with a camper set-up could be a serious machine.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/devil.gif </div>

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

BajaTaco

10-30-2003, 08:22PM

Scott, yea - he is a friend of mine - and I took that pic! When we were discussing the budget above, I had mentioned that you might have enough for a SAS. You should talk to Karlton and get some feedback from him - he has been really happy with his setup.

Here is my take on the SAS with regards to an expedition vehicle on a Tacoma platform:

1. If you can justify the cost of the swap for what you will be doing with the axle, then that is a big part of the decision. What I mean is that, IMO - you will not really see 100% of the potential of the SAS if you put it on an expedition vehicle. The reason is that an SAS like K-ton's has some incredible trail capability, but only if it is matched with a lighter truck,35" or38"tires, super flexy suspension, and low gearing. 3 out of those 4, you wouldn't ideally see on an expedition rig. Although the suspension issuemight be worked outwith additionalproject time and expense.

2. If you do decide to SAS after considering the above, you would probably want to keep the amount of lift considerably lower than K-ton's for 2 reasons - the first being center-of-gravity. You are already at a disadvantage with COG because of the weight (and possibly height) of your expedition rig/gear. If you put full width axles in front and rear, this would help, but opens a can of worms for the Tacoma platform. The second issue being your rolling resistance or profile where power-robbing wind, and fuel economy are concerned. This also gets into the issue of tire size. 35" or 38" tires are not generally considered efficient or economical for long distance touring.

3. By increasing the trail capability of the rig with the SAS and the things that come with it (larger tires, more lift, more articulation) you are inviting yourself to tackle much more technical obstacles and therefore you get into issues of strength where the frame and crossmembers, shackle points, etc. are concerned. If you have a heavy expedition rig, these considerations are amplified.

I have definitely entertained the thought of doing a SAS for a few reasons, but so far I have decided not to do it for the reasons I mentioned above. I don't claim to know it all though, and I certainly might change my mind - only time will tell. For now, I am more than happy with the Tacoma IFS. I think it is a very strong, reliable, and comfortablesetup for being an IFS. As long as I am doing long-range trips and have 33" or smaller tires, I'm pretty happy with it.
</div>

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

GoodTimes

10-31-2003, 05:39AM

Good conversation! Lots of good ideas floating around. </div>
First off, Steve, don't sell yourself short. I think Baja said it best when he said "Steve has one of the premier expedition rigs on this site". Don't think for a second that many of us here haven't looked at some of your mods and put that info away for later use. Your truck works very well for it's intended purposes. Slightly off topic--last year when I met up with the SoCal ttora guys for thier Joshua tree run, I walked up to a group of guys just in time to hear one of them say ".....have you read about that guy who has running water and a positive ventilation system in his truck?....." --- no lie! You and your mods are known far and wide!http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/beertoast.gif </div>

Anyway, back on topic. </div>
Scott, I see a couple problems with the tacoma idea. Baja addressed most of them. The small size of the vehicle is going to limit your in-cab storage, and also the availability of a shower and toilet. </div>
There are options out there for toilets, some very simple. One of the guys I ran the Rubicon with this past July, brought a "pop up" tent of sorts (about 2.5' x 2.5' x 5' tall), and a 5 gallon bucket with a toilet seat attached to it. Drop in a trash bag, do your deed, pack out what needs to be packed out. There are also several comercially available systems out there. If you go over to the Pirate Off Road BBS, there is good talk about available systems in the Rubicon Trail Talk section. Del Albright (Friends of the Rubicon) does a nice job of laying out several systems, from the simple to the complex.</div>
For showers, yikes. Without tapping a water source locally, that would be tough without adding a ton of weight to your rig. If you can tap a local source, coming up with a blind of sorts wouln't be too hard, and there are small propane powered water heaters that do a great job of heating water quickly (available in larger camper/RV parts and supply stores).</div>
Storage is another issue. The cabs are pretty small, and once you start adding equipment, the space fills up very fast. But you might be able to look at some alternative storage ideas. A couple years ago, I was reading Wards Auto World (trade publication) and one of the Big 3 (ford I believe) was talking about building a storage system into the bedsides of their trucks. It would work just like the utility beds that are currently available (aftermarket), but would keep the original body lines of the truck, and not interfere with the bed space. Basically, the outside of the bed would be made up of 6 or 8 doors, that covered small storage spaces between the inner and outer bed walls. Something like that might be available--thus helping with the storage of items you want to keep readily accessable.</div>
Another ispower to weight ratio. Once you get a tacoma loaded down, their engines are not going to offer you much performance. They will do the job, but if you want to keep your power to pull steep grades at freeway speeds, you need either a V-8, some serious v-6 modifications, or a diesel. If you want to keep your acceleration for the sand, I would shy away from the diesel. The downside is that the only small truck avaliable with a V-8, is the Dodge Dakota. But you said you want a reliable vehicle, so scratch that. You could consider aftermarket options for a tacoma v-6 (like a forced induction system), that may give you the power you need (want). I would stay away from too many engine modifications though, it will sacrafice your reliability. A supercharger might be the way to go with that.</div>
And a few opinions about the ifs vs SAS. For a expedition vehicle, I would leave the IFS where it is. It is a superior suspension system for almost every application (rock crawling is one of the few areas where it does not excell). IFS will transfer shock to the frame much better than a strait axle, it will ride smoother, it will help keep top heavy vehicles steadier (less body roll), it will carry more weight, it is just a all around better system (unless you are rock crawling, or putting 500 horsepower through it). Toyota axles are pretty strong compared to other trucks in the same class. The aftermarket support is pretty good, you shouldn't have much trouble getting the IFS to work very well for what you want....unless when you mentioned you wanted it to do trails like Ajax, you meant upper ajax, or upper-upper ajax....in which case you are getting into some stuff that you probably don't want a expedition vehicle to do anyway.</div>
Ok, 'nuff rambling for now.</div>

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

BajaTaco

10-31-2003, 06:12PM

GoodTimes said...

Once you get a tacoma loaded down, their engines are not going to offer you much performance. They will do the job, but if you want to keep your power to pull steep grades at freeway speeds, you need either a V-8, some serious v-6 modifications, or a diesel.

...A supercharger might be the way to go with that.If I had some deeper gears in mine, it would be just fine. As it is, it only has some trouble maintaining high speeds going up steep grades, but I can still pull freeway hills at acceptable speeds. As GT mentioned, the supercharger is an option that will give you PLENTY of power, but IMO they have a bunch of quirks, they only use premium gas, and will shorten the overall lifespan of the drivetrain. But here are the specs - they are indeed a very fun mod (OEM bolt-on I might add (TRD part)).

3.4L Supercharger, 5VZFE

HP & TORQUE GAIN
• Peak to peak gain: + 64 HP (34%)
• Best gain: 75 HP @ 5,200 RPM (43%)
• Peak to peak gain: + 50 lb-ft torque (22%)
• Best gain: 77 lb-ft torque (43%)
• The TRD supercharged 3.4L engine produces as much torque at 1,800 RPM as the normally aspirated engine does at its torque peak.

Overallpower for the Supercharged V6 is 260 HP.

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

expeditionswest

10-31-2003, 06:24PM

All,</div>
I should probably clarify my "power" needs. My Discovery II only has 190 hp, which is similar to the Tacoma. My Jeep has about 200, which is more than I "need" in a light vehicle like that. The more important relationship for me is the power to weight ratio. When driving long highway miles to get to the trail/adventure in a loaded, it is frustrating to be in second gear on a long grade. The factory Tacoma V6, Tundra V8 is perfect for me (I have driven both). I always try to address additional needs with gearing, and minor modifications. I mainly want to avoid the 4cyl/normally aspirated diesel options.</div>
In the Jeep I run 4.88 gears, which limits top speed (anything over 80 in a Jeep is scary anyway), but provides great performance off-road and up to 75 mph.</div>
My thoughts,</div>
Scott</div>

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

GoodTimes

10-31-2003, 07:35PM

Scott, you may be more forgiving with power requirements than I am, but we think alike in the "2nd gear pulling long grades" catagory. The 3.4l in the tacoma is a pretty weak engine when you load the rig up with lots of weight. Ok, lets back up a second, let me explain my opinion on that. Back in '00 I was looking for a all around daily driver/camping/off road truck. I ruled out the tacoma because of the lack of power. I bought a s-10/zr2 with a 4.3 (190hp/250 ft/lbs). It had much better power than the tacoma, but it still didn't like to pull hills when I loaded it down with a weeks worth of camping gear. so I can only assume that the tacoma would have been worse, since I never drove a tacoma when loaded down.

Also, let me define what I consider a long steep grade, that will make a difference too.
What I consider a long steep grade is 8% for 6+ miles at 10,000 feet above sea level. I don't consider Cajone pass a long steep grade, nor do I consider Tejon pass a long steep grade.For hills like that, the 3.4l will probably do much better than on, say, Loveland Pass (I-70 going through colorado).

Personally, if they put a v-8 in the tacoma, they would have a winner. Heck, as long as we are dreaming, how about some heavier axles and a boxed frame with a longer set of springs in the back, preferrably mounted on top of the axle (to keep the arch to a minimum), then add some decent 4-piston bridged calipers and some 13" rotors at all 4 corners......

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

JackSilb

11-05-2003, 09:02AM

> 3.4l in the tacoma is a pretty weak engine when you load the rig up with lots of weight.

Huh, try the 2.7 4Cyl, with two ~ 100 pounds dogs,2 adults,2 teens, 1 todler, tools, and gear for camping. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/cry.gif

-JACK

</div>

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

Post Edited (JackSilb) : 11/5/2003 10:39:08 PM GMT

GoodTimes

11-05-2003, 09:55AM

Jack, I have been behind you pulling small hills when you were fully loaded (and for those who haven't seen Jack's 4-runner fully loaded, it is a sight to be seen. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif

But don't worry Jack, the TLC is getting closer.....you just need a house and then you are on your way!http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/hop.gif

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

expeditionswest

11-13-2003, 09:08PM

I have been thinking a lot about all of these options, and here are my thoughts...</div>
Let's break it down into three options:</div>
Basic:</div>
Ifyou really want to build basic, dedicated expedition rigs, I think there are only three real options:</div>
FJ60- Low initial cost, totally simple design, manual trans, very little switch gear (windows, locks, etc.) Extensive aftermarket support, including a sweet 5speed with granny low first (4.95). They are big vehicles, and will require a lift and lots of body protection</div>
FJ80- Get a set of early 90's with factory lockers, tear out the interior, try to find manual switch gear, rebuild and replace until bulletproof.</div>
Series I discovery- This is the wildcard, but lots of people have used them successfully. They are smaller, and require less lift. Support/accessories is limitless</div>
maybe aLWB Range Rover (108"). It has the same drivetrain (except auto) as a 110. These vehicles are also pretty basic mechanically, no OBDII, etc.</div>
http://www.bbrcva.org/html/rover.htm</div>
http://www.raftery.com/product11.htm</div>

Spare no expense:</div>
Mercedes Benz G-wagons- Big $$$, but factory lockers, beam axles, and worldwide, onsite repair (they will fly people/parts in by helo if required) http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/supercool.gif </div>
Defender 110 CDK's- Possible http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/yeah.gif </div>
Find a way to import 105 TLC's- Possiblehttp://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/devil.gif</div>
And the most logical choice:</div>
Use what I have.The Discover II isat the height of its design (and end of the production life, before IFS, IRS, etc) </div>
The Rover needs a few things, like better bumpers and protection. I would install air lockers too. Spend some time enhancing the functionality of the vehicle (12 and 120v outlets, gas and water storage, storage systems, computer/navigation system, etc.) If I buy a new vehicle, I will be spending a lot of time working on it, not spending time outdoors, which is the whole reason why I am doing this!http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/banghead.gif </div>
Sooo http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/headscratch.gif </div>

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

JackSilb

11-14-2003, 01:21AM

Where are the Tacomas in your list?
I have been seeing some Defenders in the streets but very rarely. Are they not sold in the US?

LLLLOOOOOTTTTS of them in Brazil. Diesel baby.
-JACK

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

expeditionswest

11-14-2003, 03:35AM

Jack,

The Tacoma is still an option, but it would have to be a quad cab, long bed (Toyota does not curently make one). I am going to go look at the crew cabs this weekend to get a better feel. Maybe a crew cab with a cap, and a roof tent would be nice. Have you guys seen this new roof tent? It might be a great solution for you Jack. I bet it would sleep 6 people. Doron and I are investigating http://www.flippac.com/flippacjr.htm
</div>

Post Edited By Moderator (JackSilb) : 11/14/2003 8:13:06 AM GMT

YukonBob

11-14-2003, 06:14AM

Yes, I’ve been thinking about this a lot, too. I’d never thought about it in terms of an expedition vehicle, but that is what I do. So I should start thinking about it. I went through the decision process last year. I thought I’d share what happened. </div>
</o:p></div>
Wheelbase was my starting point. I set my maximum at 122 inches because I wanted to be able to include the big cab Tacoma’s. There are many here that drive them and the reviews are good. </div>
</o:p></div>
Space is the next biggest consideration, lots of different space for lots of different reasons. Like Scott, we travel with many cameras and an extensive reference library. They all need to be accessible to the driver and passenger from their seated positions. There needs to be room to mount the computer so it doesn’t interfere with the comfort of the driver and passenger and is available to both. We also like to be able to sleep in the vehicle. And last but not least the ability to carry stuff, a lot of stuff. </div>
</o:p></div>
The only Tacoma that met the interior accessibility criteria was the crew cab. It had the room to pile stuff. The way it got the room was to make the bed of the truck too short for sleeping. The crew cab was going to have to have some kind of shell or camper with sleeping facilities over the roof. </div>
</o:p></div>
We looked at different ones available and nothing really seemed to work. The Four-Wheel Camper is well built but it’s basic shell for the Tacoma weighs in at 540 pounds and I was not willing to invest that great of percentage of payload. The cost of the truck and camper were getting close to the cost of a full size SUV. The Flip Pac look interesting but finding one to look at proved difficult. I realized that were spending a lot of effort to come up with something that gave us what we had in our 1995 GMC Yukon.</div>
</o:p></div>
In 2003 we ended up buying a Tahoe Z71 with 117-inch wheelbase and lots of interior room. We drove it from the dealer in downtown Los Angeles to Anza-Borrego to make sure it went through a proper break in period. I am thrilled with its performance but we still seem to take the Yukon on most of the trips. Why? The Yukon has a tailgate! We use the tailgate a lot and aren’t ready to give it up. It’s funny how the little things make a big difference.</div>
</o:p></div>
So with months of searching and research, I’ve ended up with the same vehicle that I’ve had for the last eight years. The question becomes what do I need to do to turn it into my ideal vehicle.</div>
</o:p></div>

<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Change out the center console and make it into an electronics console to hold the radios and the computer that will be built into it. That will make a good mounting location for the 14-inch LCD monitor.
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Make a sleeping platform in the back to minimize the amount of things that have to be moved to sleep.
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Build storage compartments under the sleeping platform.
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Maybe install the roof rack PVC shower.
</o:p></div>
I’m sure I’ll have more to say on the subject but I have to finish packing for my two-day expedition to El Golfo. Need to make sure that I have plenty of spit just in case I can’t make it across. </div>

expeditionswest

11-14-2003, 06:21AM

Do you have pictures of your Tahoe? You have me curious...

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

YukonBob

11-14-2003, 06:48AM

There are some pictures around here somewhere. Check out the Ship Rock thread under previous trips. I think there are some pictures in Canyon De Chelly and around Ship Rock.

Most of the pictures are of the Yukon in other threads.

expeditionswest

11-14-2003, 07:05AM

Great Canyon De Chelly pictures! We completed that trip in July, but the canyons were dry. How did the Range Rover fair in the water, etc.? How were you able to drive so close to Shiprock with it being a protected/holy site?

Here is our Canyon de Chelly report FYI : http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/canyon_de_chelly_2003/index.html

http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/canyon_de_chelly_2003/images/CDChelly_rover3_jpg.jpg

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

JackSilb

11-14-2003, 08:16AM

BajaTaco

11-14-2003, 05:41PM

Scott Brady said...
Jack,

The Tacoma is still an option, but it would have to be a quad cab, long bed (Toyota does not curently make one). I am going to go look at the crew cabs this weekend to get a better feel. Maybe a crew cab with a cap, and a roof tent would be nice. Have you guys seen this new roof tent? It might be a great solution for you Jack. I bet it would sleep 6 people. Doron and I are investigating http://www.flippac.com/flippacjr.htm (http://www.flippac.com/flippacjr.htm)

JackSilb said...

Oh, I like that.
Lets see if the company will release it soon. Just wondering if they need some beta testers

-JACKI don't think the Tacoma crew cab (4 door) with a 6' bed would be such a good idea - way too long of a wheelbase. The xcabs and crew cabs are already 122" WB. Your current SUV's don't have a 6' sleeping area behind the rear seats anyway, so I am not sure what the difference is? I don't see much difference between a Tacoma crew cab and a 4runner or a Disco, or a Yukon for that matter (with regards to length of cargo space). The only difference would be if you planned to fold the rear seats down (or remove them) to make room for a bed, in which case you defeat the purpose of having the rear seat area dedicated to your photo equipment, electronics, and books and such.

I didn't know that Flip Pac was coming out with a rooftop tent, so thanks for the linkhttp://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/wink.gif It looks nice and roomy, but also "flappy" in the wind and kinda "saggy" in the rain and snow. I could be wrong though - best to check it out in person. I would think a more compact unit would be more stable in inclement weather though.

I need to look at the links Scott posted and comment some more.

Bob, you bring up good points too. I think the Yukon cabin (cockpit area) suits your needs pretty well. It seemed very comfy and spacious to me, and perfect for the computer and radios. The only disadvantage I might see is if you ever wanted to take it on some tight and narrow trails where damage to the body panels is a concern, since it has a wider profile. If you don't "look" for those situations though, you probably won't have to deal with them. I think that pretty much only occurs when you voluntarily decide to do an established difficult trail for the sake of "rock crawling" or if you decide to explore an uncharted creekbed/canyon type of trail somewhere and you come upon an unexpected technical rock area. And I know what you mean about the tailgate! It is an invaluable part of my camper system. I have considered doing a full-door type camper shell, or a swing-away tire carrier - but both detract from the use of the all-too-convenient tailgate. The tailgate is like a handy workbench, a food prep table, and a "porch" all in one.
</div>

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

expeditionswest

11-14-2003, 05:54PM

Chris,

Thanks for the great comment! My justification for a "bigger" vehicle like a Tacoma crew cab long bed, or tunda would be to build a comfortable "expedition" vehicle, that I would use only for long trips, and try to limit the trail difficulty to a 3 or less. I would include a big winch, lockers, skidplates and HD bumpers for the occassion that the road is extreem. I also have a few "rock ramp" ideas that I have used in the past with great success.

Having said all of that: I have always prefered a mid sized SUV or smaller, because I always seem to search out trouble http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/smilewinkgrin.gif ! I think my Discovery is really all I need. I just have to address the roof tent/trailer issue, and build it up a bit (lockers, bumpers, rocker protection) and call it good.

All of these awesome trip you guys go on makes me care MUCH less about the vehicle this anymore.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/smashfreakb.gif I just want to load up what I have and GO!

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

WhiteThaiGer

11-14-2003, 07:06PM

Scott Brady said...

All of these awesome trip you guys go on makes me care MUCH less about the vehicle this anymore.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/smashfreakb.gif I just want to load up what I have and GO!
</div>Funny, I thought the same thing looking at your site http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/cool.gif

***************************************
http://www.confluence.org
http://www.usgo.org

MrS

11-14-2003, 08:24PM

[quote]

YukonBob said...

Yes, I’ve been thinking about this a lot, too.....I realized that were spending a lot of effort to come up with something that gave us what we had in our 1995 GMC Yukon......The question becomes what do I need to do to turn it into my ideal vehicle.
</o:p>

<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Change out the center console .....
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Make a sleeping platform ...Build storage compartments under.......
<LI class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in">Maybe install the roof rack.......
Cool http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/ok-kewl.gif </div>
I've been wondering how your plans where going. I've always favored the idea of you using your old rig. It's a sound rig (except when I'm with you) it has room, it's paid for, etc., etc.</div>
I plan many years of use from my Tacoma, but see needing a full-size someday. </div>
Keep us (at least me) posted as to your plans, since I have the K-Blazer, I aways try and keep my eyes open for upgrades, mods, and add-ons for the full size trucks. </div>

KF6YSB

BajaTaco

11-14-2003, 08:50PM

Scott, I like your idea of keeping the Rover and developing it more. I just think they are bitchin' vehicles http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/cool.gif

But, I will just give you one more thing to consider (although I'm sure you already have). If you plan to use the Disco for Mexico/South America stuff... the premium fuel requirement can be a problem, no? Also, the efficiency of the motor - I was looking at it... looks like you develop 190 HP which is the same as the V6 Tacoma, but get less mileage. I imagine it is due to the curb weight being heavier and so is the GVWR. Here are some stats for a comparison...

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/17255.shtml

http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/16172.shtml

If you are ok with the fuel consumption and emmissions, then I think it is probably a good choice for you, not to mention you are already comfortable and experienced driving it.

Again, I don't mean to seem biased toward the Tacoma(even though I am! http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/devil.gif (evil laugh)) - I only used it as a comparison because I have first-hand knowledge of the Tacoma. This comparison couldbe drawn between many vehicles. I am just trying to bring up the fuel economy vs. distance traveled for consideration. The Rover has a lot of advantages and merits that may outweigh this consideration. I am just trying to be thorough with the discussion and make sure we cover all the angles.
</div>

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

Post Edited (BajaTaco) : 11/14/2003 11:14:18 PM GMT

JackSilb

11-15-2003, 05:22AM

Baja,

You gave me a pointer to some roof tent made in Australia one day.
I will search the Forum just in case it was here not e-mail.

Found it. Scott, thanks to Baja, here is it even using a Discovery.

http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/attach.aspx/55/geartent14.jpg
http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/?f=12&m=1196

The problem is if I use a roof tent, where I will carry all the gear? Sleeping bags, chairs, etc.
-JACK

</div>

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

Post Edited (JackSilb) : 11/15/2003 5:46:15 AM GMT

JackSilb

11-15-2003, 05:37AM

Interesting setup

http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/attach.aspx/53/geartent05.jpg
http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/attach.aspx/54/geartent02.jpg
http://www.offroadacademy.com/gear.php

Jus the quality of the tents semms bad.
-JACK

</div>

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

Post Edited (JackSilb) : 11/15/2003 5:47:15 AM GMT

BajaTaco

11-15-2003, 05:51AM

Jack, if you get a roof tent with a hard, waterproof caselike the Technitop, Ezi-Awn, or Maggiolina, you can keep your sleeping bags and pillows inside the tent when you close it up. When you open the tent, your bags/bedding is ready for you to crawl in and relax.

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

JackSilb

11-15-2003, 05:57AM

Whell, I meant ALL the oher boxes too.
-JACK

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

expeditionswest

11-15-2003, 06:56AM

The fuel requirements for the Discoveryis probably the biggest issue. I carry bottles of octane boost with me, and have had no issues. There are even some technical document that indicate octane levels down to 85 are ok, but performance will suffer. The engine management system retards the timing to compensate. I average about 14 mpg in mixed driving, and 12 when pulling the trailer/loaded. The fact that the vehicle is full time 4wd also makes a difference. The cost of the fuel is not that big of a deal, but the MPG is a big factor on expeditions. </o:p></div>
Your comment caught my interest so I did a small study based upon your EPA number. I included vehicles from the two extremes, and a few othersfor reference. The result are very interesting:</o:p></div>
Given all vehicles listed were completing a 1000 mile expedition fully self supported, in which all vehicles attained EPA city mileage. The 5gallon Jerry can requirement is based upon all of the vehicles having the same sized gas tank as the <st1:City><st1:place>Tacoma. The <st1:City><st1:place>Tacoma 6cyl is the reference vehicle. </o:p></div>
Here are the results:</o:p></div>
Vehicle EPA (City) Total Gallons Fuel Mass VarianceMass 5gal Cans Req.</o:p></div>
<st1:City><st1:place>Tacoma 6cyl 17 59 Gal 354 lbs. Reference Reference</o:p></div>
Suzuki Sidekick 22 45 Gal 270 lbs. -84 lbs -3</o:p></div>
<st1:City><st1:place>Tacoma 4cyl 18 56 Gal 336 lbs. -18 lbs -1</o:p></div>
Tundra V8 15 67 Gal 402 lbs. 48 lbs +2</o:p></div>
Discovery II 13 77 Gal 462 lbs. 108 lbs +4</o:p></div>
Hummer H2 8.5 118 Gal 706 lbs. 352 lbs +12</o:p></div>
The <st1:City><st1:place>Tacoma is a very frugal machine, considering that it has a relatively high GVWR.</o:p></div>
Payload Comparison (lbs.):</o:p></div>
Discovery II- 1,600</o:p></div>
Tundra- 1,525</o:p></div>
<st1:City><st1:place>Tacoma- 1,395</o:p></div>
4Runner- 1,195</o:p></div>
Engine Performance:</o:p></div>
I have never had any majorissues with the performance of the engine, as the vehicle is geared low, and develops 267 ft. lbs. of torque at 2,600 rpm.; whereas the <st1:City><st1:place>Tacoma generates 220 ft. lbs. at 3,600 rpm. But I am sure that this performance advantage is mute because of the weight difference. The Discovery's curb weight isabout the samethe Tacomas GVWR! The Disco II curb weight is 5,062 lbs. </o:p></div>

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

YukonBob

11-18-2003, 03:36AM

Scott said...
Great Canyon De Chelly pictures! We completed that trip in July, but the canyons were dry. How did the Range Rover fair in the water, etc.? How were you able to drive so close to Shiprock with it being a protected/holy site?The Range Rover did very well all the places we went. As I said, David was a little surprised when we dived into the rushing torrent but he trusted the vehicle and everything was fine.

Ship Rock is protected from climbing. There are several roads in the area and we stayed on the roads. I guess that could change if it becomes too popular. Most everyone is content to photograph Ship Rock from the highway.

You might enjoy the story of what caused us to be at Ship Rock. (http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/?f=10&m=1095)

BajaTaco

11-19-2003, 02:40PM

Well, I am learning more about the Disco. Thanks for the detailed reply. I really like your comparison stats - really puts it into perspective when you can see the kind of gallons and weight required for a trip. Regarding the Tacoma being frugal, I never really thought of it that way... but I do remember some comments from the other drivers on the Sierra Madre trip... Bob, what was Dale saying?... something like "that Tacoma is making fuel" http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/lol.gifsince we had to refuel along the way using the local's "drum" fuel, we were paying attention to what everyone was using as far as fuel consumption. I hadabout 10-11 gallons of reserve fuel, but never had to use it.

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

expeditionswest

11-26-2003, 03:36AM

... From the manual hub post

Chris,

The Trooper has been rock solid. It has had no repairs, and has only been to the dealer for routine service. This is Isuzus flagship, so build quality is top notch. They are so confident in the reliability that the vehicle came with a 120,000 mile powertrain warranty!

The 285/75's fit without rubbing. I could have installed 315's with a new front bumper and by lowering the bumpstops slightly. The truck has big wheel openings.

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

BajaTaco

11-26-2003, 03:02PM

Scott Brady said...
... From the manual hub post

Chris,

The Trooper has been rock solid. It has had no repairs, and has only been to the dealer for routine service. This is Isuzus flagship, so build quality is top notch. They are so confident in the reliability that the vehicle came with a 120,000 mile powertrain warranty!

The 285/75's fit without rubbing. I could have installed 315's with a new front bumper and by lowering the bumpstops slightly. The truck has big wheel openings.

How many miles do you have on it? This sounds really nice! Yea, I have seen the "Troopy" as being owned by lots of aussies as a trip vehicle, but just like the Patrol (Nissan), I don't know much about them. I need to learn. What kind of gas mileage do you get with it? What is the fuel capacity with the stock tank? Are there aftermarket tanks avaialble?

It looks like the trooper model was discontinued in 2002 (for US anyway)? Here is a cool link... Isuzu Challenge 2003 (http://www.4x4wire.com/isuzu/trails/isuzu_challenge_03/)
</div>

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

Post Edited (BajaTaco) : 11/26/2003 3:24:03 PM GMT

expeditionswest

11-26-2003, 03:35PM

My Trooper just turned over 80,000 miles. </div>
Stephanie and I probably ran 1/3 of the trails in the Massey and Wilson Backcountry Adventure book in that truck. It wasnt that expensive so we just enjoyed it, didnt worry about the paint, etc. </div>
One most important mod for the trooper is a shock/spring change. When we first bought the truck, itwas sprung/valved way too soft, withtoo much pitch and roll off-road. I installed the OME reavy rear springs and firm shocks all around, and it was a new vehicle!</div>
I get about 18 mpg on the highway (with the manual hubs), whichI think is decentfor the engine size/output. The motor makes 230hp, and really feels strong.</div>
It has a 22.5 gallon tank. There are several tank options for the vehicle.</div>
The low-range could be better for crawling (2.0:1), but for expedition work it is perfect.</div>
Another couple cool things:</div>
Roof load capacity: 1000 lbs
Ambulance Doors
Long travel rearend
You can get ARB's and 5.13 gears for it front and rearhttp://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/yeah.gif
The vehicle is totally sealed against water and dust. It will actualy float (I dont know for how longhttp://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif ) You really have to slam the doors to get them to shut. It also doesn't use a distributer, so the engine is well sealed (good dipstick seals too)
check out this cool snorkel video of the trooper: http://www.safarisnorkel.com.au/docs/video.htm</div>
A couple more pics:</div>
Berboo Canyon, CA
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/Berboo_Canyon/images/11_011_JPG.jpg</div>
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/Berboo_Canyon/images/06_006_JPG.jpg</div>
El Camino Del Diablo, AZ</div>
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2002/ECDD_2002/ecddtrooper.jpg</div>

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

BajaTaco

11-26-2003, 04:21PM

Nice pics http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/ok-kewl.gif great mileage http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/wink.gif

The Trooper looks to be a really nice adventure rig!

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

expeditionswest

12-01-2003, 06:03PM

Has anyone seen a Tacoma converted from 2wd to SAS 4wd? I am curious, as you can buy a 2001 2wd Tacoma Crew Cab TRD for about 15,000. The TRD has the same frame and rear axle as the 4wd model. You could rip out the IFS, and install a TLC80 front end with locker, and mate a 5 speed and Transfer Case (or dual tcase) to the stock motor, and your done. You could have a SAS crew cab with dual tcases for about the same price as a 4wd Crew Cab of the same year. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/supercool.gif </div>
Short of a BJ75 Land Cruiser, this would probably be one hell of an expedition rig.</div>
Any thoughts...</div>

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

GoodTimes

12-02-2003, 01:09AM

You would run into problems with the PCM program, particularly if you used a automatic transmission. The 2wd and 4wd use different programs (possibly different hardware as well). Most of that is associated with transmission control, and emissions control. The difference being that the 4wd has 4-lo. If you could get around those issues, and had the cash up front to pay for the mods, that would be the way to go!

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

expeditionswest

12-02-2003, 03:17AM

I agree with the Automatic Trans issue, that is why I would stick with the 5-speed. There are many nice crawling options for the toyota, that I think manual is the way to go. Plus, I think a manual makes for a better expedition transmission. Push start options, mechanical nature, you could crack the case, loose all of your fluid, and still (probably) make it to the highway. </div>
My Jeep is a 5-speed with 4.88 gears in the axles. Makes for a great combo to the torque of the straight six.</div>
Even though I will probably stick with the Rover for the near term, a Toyata expedition truck would just be soooooo cool. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/devil.gif </div>

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
1977 Toyota Land Cruiser FJ40
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

MrS

12-02-2003, 06:58PM

http://www.junglecode.com/toyota/tacoma/transmission/

Thats a link to Taco trans swap. I didn't read it. Just ran arcoss it. Maybe something usefull.
</div>

KF6YSB

Post Edited (MrS) : 12/2/2003 7:01:57 PM GMT

expeditionswest

12-02-2003, 07:12PM

MrS,

Very nice link. This will be very helpful. I am just in the begining stages of evaluating this option.

Doron and I have been taking a look at these basic diesel Land Cruisers that an amoring company has been getting into the states. I am working with them to determin availability of getting a 105 TLC (diesel, straight axle, 5-speed) imported. One could only dream.

http://www.alpineco.com/new-armored-vehicles.htm

Scott
</div>

Post Edited By Moderator (JackSilb) : 12/4/2003 2:35:40 AM GMT

BajaTaco

12-03-2003, 05:08AM

BajaTaco said...

[quote]...I have seen the "Troopy" as being owned by lots of aussies as a trip vehicle...
Geez... I need to keep my slang straight... that's the TLC troop carrier, not the Isuzu.. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

BajaTaco

12-03-2003, 05:13AM

Scott, I love the sounds of your modified d-cab. You should go to http://forums.delphiforums.com/tacomaterritory/start(requires registration) and ask in the SAS section. There are lots of SAS'd Taco owners who may have contemplated this, or have some insight on it. The axle of choice seems to be late 80's model wagoneer D44.

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

MrS

12-05-2003, 04:32PM

http://www.army4x4.com

These guys might have a good plateform to build a solid backcountry camping rig on. May not make a friendly hiway rig.

Of course there is always the option of building a F-550 4X4car-carrier with a full camper. Then you just haul your super trick street-legal rock buggy.

KF6YSB

MrS

12-05-2003, 07:38PM

http://www.qsl.net/af0d/Pinzgauer.html

Looking for some grave info. and ran arcross this. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif

KF6YSB

WhiteThaiGer

12-05-2003, 08:07PM

MrS said...
http://www.qsl.net/af0d/Pinzgauer.html

Looking for some grave info. and ran arcross this. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif
</div>There is a guy in Big Bear who has a few of these, I think he runs tours with them. We met him in Bajaearlier this year. I remember these little guys well from the Alps. They are rather small and uncomfortable though, not an expedition vehicle, more something that you park in the back of a big RV http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/wink.gif

***************************************
http://www.confluence.org
http://www.usgo.org

GoodTimes

12-06-2003, 12:03AM

Sorta on topic:</div>
Yesterday there was a story in the Arizona paper about a agreement that was reached between 14 automakers and traffic safety advocacy groups (read: SUV/Truck haters). The 14 automakers (including the big 3) have agreed to voluntarily make SUV's and trucks safer to people riding in passenger cars. This entails lowering the frame rails, weakening the frames (so they bend easier when they hit a car), lowering bumper heights to match those of passenger cars, and probably reducing mass, among other things.</div>

What this means to all of us, is that new trucks/suv's will be less off road capable from the factory in the near future. This is very problematic to those of us who want a vehicle that can clear a speed bump. GM is alreadyusing engines witha integral oil pan/differential (envoy or trail blazer--cant recall which one, I believe it is with the 5 cylinder engine). Lifting that curb scraper will be nearly impossible. It won't be long before more and more vehicles do this type of thingin order to lower every part of trucks to passenger car heights.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/shakehead.gif</div>

Just thought I would pass that on.</div>

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

AlWalter

12-06-2003, 12:34AM

GoodTimes said...

Sorta on topic:
Yesterday there was a story in the Arizona paper about a agreement that was reached between 14 automakers and traffic safety advocacy groups (read: SUV/Truck haters). The 14 automakers (including the big 3) have agreed to voluntarily make SUV's and trucks safer to people riding in passenger cars. This entails lowering the frame rails, weakening the frames (so they bend easier when they hit a car), lowering bumper heights to match those of passenger cars, and probably reducing mass, among other things.

</div>I also read that in yesterdays paper. That's going tolet the older vehicles appreciate in value.

I guess better & stronger is no longer an option. Weaker & more fragile is the way we're headed.

KG6SGM
Always ready to go.

expeditionswest

12-06-2003, 06:29AM

I like the Pinzgauers. Particularly the K model radio trucks. They actually have quite a bit of room in the back. Serviceability and road performance is poor though. Limited articulation due to torque tube design can be scary in rocks and crossed axle terrain. But they do look cool!

Scott

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com
http://www.expeditionswest.com/adventures/2003/El_Golfo_2003/thumbnails/DSC00417_JPG.jpg

YukonBob

12-06-2003, 07:27PM

What are the concerns/dangers with carrying fuel inside the passenger compartment?. Inside my dreamexpedition vehicle, I'm going to build storage compartments. There would be room for one of these marine type fuel tanks (http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/templates/links/link.jhtml?id=0000958012942a&type=product&cmCat=st atic_product). Something to consider ?

http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/idea.gifI'm always forgetting these two numbers so I thought I would put them here so I would know where to find them.
How much does a gallon of water weigh ? 8.3 pounds
How much does a gallon of gas weigh ? 6.2 pounds

Post Edited (YukonBob) : 12/6/2003 7:44:44 PM GMT

BajaTaco

12-07-2003, 08:09PM

Pinzgauer's are pretty incredible vehicles. I have 'wheeled in one (http://www.bajataco.com/Alto_ORV/L_Alto_PinzRocks.jpg) (as a passenger) and they are super fun. As Scott mentioned, they don't flex (http://www.bajataco.com/Alto_ORV/L_Alto_PinzWheelie.jpg) (articulate) alot, but much of that is compensated for by their excellent traction and stability. The ground clearance and fording depth is incredible. The approach, BO, and departure angles are awesome too. The 710K or 712K (hard back) models are actually pretty well suited for expedition travel IMO, with the major downfall being the fuel consumption and emmissions. There are quite a few these that have been around on long treks incl. South America and Australia. You can load these with enormous amounts of weight, so doing a custom camper (http://www.ebroadcast.com.au/ecars/Conv/Campers/PiCs37/Pin6x6.1998.jpg) on the back of one, with roof rack, etc. is no problem. They are specialized vehicles though, so you really need to be a Pinz hobbyist for proper care and feeding. If you are interested to know more about Pinz's from people who own them or are studying them, check out this forum (http://www.real4x4.com/wwwboard/wwwboard.shtml). I wouldn't mind owning one of these someday - they arevery fun!

Goodtimes, I have a feeling that the need for trucks will never go away. They make put lots of regs on SUV's but the agricultural, industrial, commercial fleet, service industries, etc. will always need trucks so I doubt they can do too much to weaken and lower them. Making them more efficient and cleaner is a good thing. SUV's on ther other hand... well... I can't really say that I don't agree the whole SUV thing has gotten out of control, to the point of being ridiculous. Just MHO.

Bob, on the fuel tank - I don't think you would want it with open access to the "living" area of the vehicle. Ifyou utilized some compartment, where it was fairly sealed off (like in a sealed cabinet or something), that would be ok. My aux. fuel filler comes right into the camper on my truck, but it has a good o-ring seal, so no vapors ever get into the camper.

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

GoodTimes

12-08-2003, 04:08AM

[quote]

BajaTaco said...

Goodtimes, I have a feeling that the need for trucks will never go away. They make put lots of regs on SUV's but the agricultural, industrial, commercial fleet, service industries, etc. will always need trucks so I doubt they can do too much to weaken and lower them. Making them more efficient and cleaner is a good thing. SUV's on ther other hand... well... I can't really say that I don't agree the whole SUV thing has gotten out of control, to the point of being ridiculous. Just MHO.

I agree, the need for trucks won't go away, but the trucks are indeed being turned into passenger cars with a large, open trunk. The "heavy" trucks (GVWR 8600 lbs +) will likely not change as rapidly as the light trucks (GVWR less than 8600 lbs). Too many people who have no business in a truck are driving them just because they think that they look cool (like the HR lady at work--just bought a F-150, but said she would never actually use the bed, she just wanted it because it looked nice http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/hitting.gif ). There are so many trucks ont he street that the people driving them are becoming a hazard to the general population. The automakers are responding to political pressure because of it. And we are the ones who pay the price (literally, we pay the price when we end up spending thousands more dollars to outfit a new rig because of all this crap).

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

WhiteThaiGer

12-08-2003, 04:29AM

GoodTimes said...

[quote]....Too many people who have no business in a truck are driving them just because they think that they look cool (like the HR lady at work--just bought a F-150, but said she would never actually use the bed, she just wanted it because it looked nice http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/hitting.gif ). There are so many trucks ont he street that the people driving them are becoming a hazard to the general population.....Yeah, all these people who buy these big cars and then don't know how to drive them. You see so many 3-or-more-point parking manouvers at the stores, just because these guys don't know the dimensions of there vehicles. Today I witnessed a guy with his Sequoia who actually send the passenger out to spot him.... There was plenty of room and if anyone needing spotting in that situation should drive this (http://www.smart.com/-snm-0135155096-1069681139-0000001469-0000009848-1070857529-enm-smart/content/au/en/smart/modelle/smartcitycoupe/galerie).

***************************************
http://www.confluence.org
http://www.usgo.org

JackSilb

12-08-2003, 06:44AM

Uwe,

I saw many similar puppies like this in the Bay Area...
Cool to see them around being used.

-JACK

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

GoodTimes

12-08-2003, 12:37PM

[quote]

WhiteThaiGer said...
[quote]
...anyone needing spotting in that situation should drive this (http://www.smart.com/-snm-0135155096-1069681139-0000001469-0000009848-1070857529-enm-smart/content/au/en/smart/modelle/smartcitycoupe/galerie).http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/lol.gif

Actually, that would be a good thing. Personally, I wish that the prices of the small hybrid's would come down to a affordable level so more people could afford them (myself included) instead of some of the very cheap, old, large, gas sucking-smoke blowing cars that are on the road.

I almost don't like driving my old truck because it is difficult to maneuver in tight parking lots (that and it is a gas hog).

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

BajaTaco

12-08-2003, 02:57PM

GoodTimes said...

[quote]
...Personally, I wish that the prices of the small hybrid's would come down to a affordable level so more people could afford them (myself included)...MOTOR TREND 2004 Car of the Year (http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/112_031120_coy/)- very competitively priced at $20,510 MSRP.

To try and keep this on topic though... it will be really cool when we can have expedition vehicles that are this efficient and clean.

http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/hop.gif

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

expeditionswest

12-12-2003, 05:03AM

I came across this interesting camper for the Toyota's (and other trucks) I dont know the weight yet, but it looks like it might solve some of the headroom issues. You would loose the tailgate though...

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com

JackSilb

12-12-2003, 08:14PM

Lots of space.
How are you doing on your pursue of the Expedition machine?

-JACK

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

expeditionswest

12-12-2003, 09:18PM

Well, I am in a holding pattern.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/headscratch.gif

In the past, I would have made a rush decision, and spent too much money without the right result. I really like the Land Rover, but I am not sold on its reliability, etc. for long distance expedition travel. I have been looking seriously at several Defender 110's and Land Cruiser 105's with Diesel motors, but these are very expensive vehicles to drive in poor countries. You end up standing out WAY too much, and I think it creates a liability.

I need to set aside the romantic decisions (like a 110) and look at my real needs. I keep coming back to the Toyota truck solution. You end up with high payload, good mileage, loads of aftermarket support, reliability, etc. And the cost is very reasonable. I could easily spend 60+ on a 110 or new Land Cruiser. I would wrather save the money for the actual trips.

So, that is were I stand. I have decided not to modify the Rover further, and just keep it as Stephanie's vehicle until the warranty expires (early 2005).

My real choices have come to this:

Trooper
FJ80 Land Cruiser (hard to find low mileage units though)
Toyota Truck
New Canyon or Colorado truck (Wild Card: I need more info)
Tundra (would limit trail difficulty)

What do you guys think???

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com

GoodTimes

12-13-2003, 03:16PM

Scott Brady said...
...
My real choices have come to this:
....
New Canyon or Colorado truck (Wild Card: I need more info)
.....

What do you guys think???

</div>I would think long and hard about this one. I am a chevy fan, but chevy is not really know for it's super reliability, or for it's fuel economy. They have made alot of changes with the new trucks (like the inline 5 cylinder engine), and many of them need to be proven before I would seriously consider them for a expedition vehicle.

Also, the parts availability in the far reaches of poor countries will be extreamly limited.

I have thought a fair amount about a short range expedition vehicle when I get my [extream] trail rig built, and I gotta say, the tacoma is the way to go, for all the reasons you have mentioned. It might be a bit small for long expeditions, but I have never done anything more than about 7 or 8 days, so I could be wrong.

One thing you would have with the chevy over the toyota, is some style.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/devil.gif

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

BajaTaco

12-13-2003, 05:09PM

Although the Colorado does have some impressive fuel economy and low emmisions for it's class, I agree with Goodtimes regarding the Chevy/GM option.</div>
The Isuzu would be great since you already own it, and you know it's history, reliablility, etc. I think this is a strong candidate.</div>
The FJ80 would definitely be nice, but it has the age/mileage thing against it, and all of theissues that come with that.</div>
The Tundra V8 doesn't have very good fuel economy and the emissions are pretty poor. You would be dumpinga coupla tons more of greenhouse gas into the atmosphere per yearthan with a Tacoma V6. The V8 also isn't available with a manual trans. - not sure if this matters to you, but I think you had mentioned that it does. The V6 Tundra will probably be underpowered, especially after you add the gear.</div>
I think the Tacoma is the other strong candidate next to the Trooper. I would do some side-by-side comparison with these two, evaluating different set-ups (roof tent vs. camper, roof-tent/camper combo, storage arrangments, 4wd modifications available, etc. to see which one might have the best overall oufit that will meet your needs. You already know what I think of the Tacoma reliablity/longevity. It's outstanding.</div>

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

JackSilb

12-15-2003, 04:38AM

Scott,

The more I think of your application and family size the more I think you will be very happy with the Tacoma. Add the supercharger and you will get ~ 30% more power. That may make you happy.

I am not sure any of us will do very difficult trails when doing some kind of long trip > 1 week. I think we would be too far from home and probably very heavy to try difficult trails. Difficult is relative and I will leave it with that.
For instance, doing Baja on a larger truck take you to a lot of places and you will be able to carry more than you can on the Tacoma.

If I did not have all the kids I have I would go with the Tacoma + supercharger.
You can always have a toy around for the more difficult trails. You have the Jeep already... So forget about trail difficulty.

At this point, I plan to get a TLC for family trips and later something else for when I go alone with one or two kids. Something that I don't need to set the tent. ex: Tacoma or Tundra.

-JACK

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

BajaTaco

12-15-2003, 03:48PM

The drawbacks of the supercharger on an expedition vehicle are the requirement for premium fuel ($$ and availablility) and MORE of it, not to mention all of the little nuisances that the SC people are always complaining about.

And Scott, you said "Toyota truck" but I assumed you meant a "new" truck, namely the Tacoma. But maybe you meant "truck" as in, the Toyota truck before it had a name (pre-1995)?
</div>

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

expeditionswest

12-15-2003, 05:01PM

Update:

I have decided to bring the Trooper back from California for good. I am going to do some research and evaluate the Trooper further. It might end up being the logical choice (plus its paid for). If I decide to go with a Tacoma or FJ80, I will sell the Trooper. It is really just a matter of making a decision now.Either the Trooper will be the truck I stick with, or help pay for the one I buy, and the money from the FJ40 will go towards the modifications.I want to wrap this up quickly so thatI can actually got ON the trail!http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/hop.gif

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com

GoodTimes

12-15-2003, 07:54PM

Scott Brady said...
Update:

... It might end up being the logical choice (plus its paid for) ...The "plus its paid for" part makes it a very logical choice.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

KSmith

12-17-2003, 01:51AM

Greetings from the new kid on the block. I saw that you were talking about my Flippac in this thread, so I thought I would throw in my opinion.

My requirements for purchase were:
Had to fit in the garage.
Had to be able to handle it by myself.
Had to have reasonable gas economy.

I decided on the Flippac, bought a new 2003 Ford Ranger, ordered the Flippac and have been out camping in it three of four times in the past 6 weeks. I love my truck. I was getting 25 mpg without the Flippac and am guessing that is down around 22 or 23 mpg with the gadget.

Here are some pictures (http://members.cox.net/ksmith8/Flippac/index.html)of my "baby". The state of Arizona gave her a license with the letters MAB, so her name is Mad Mab (Mab was Merlin's enemy and a powerful sorceress.) Enjoy the pictures and ask any questions. I will be glad to answer if I can.

Kitty /forum/emoticons/camera_flash.gif

Post Edited By Moderator (JackSilb) : 12/17/2003 7:29:18 AM GMT

KSmith

12-17-2003, 01:52AM

Yikes! Forgot the link. http://members.cox.net/ksmith8/Flippac/index.html

Post Edited By Moderator (JackSilb) : 12/17/2003 7:28:07 AM GMT

KSmith

12-17-2003, 01:57AM

/forum/emoticons/headscratch.gif The link is not active. Let's try this:

members.cox.net/ksmith8/Flippac/index.html (http://members.cox.net/ksmith8/Flippac/index.html)

expeditionswest

12-17-2003, 02:24AM

Nice Ranger and Flippac! Lets get it out on the trails!

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com

BajaTaco

12-17-2003, 05:08AM

Welcome to the forum Kitty http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/cool.gif

I am curious about your Flip-Pac. Have you camped with it in the wind yet? How about rain? What kind of matress do you use on the sleeping loft? Is there room to put a cargo deck in the bed of your ranger, and still have room to stand up (if the cargo deck was 9" or 10" high from the floor of the bed)? Any idea how much your flip-pac weighs? Sorry for all of the questions - but now that I have a real live flip-pac owner to talk to, I wanna hear it all!
</div>

http://www.bajataco.com

JackSilb

12-17-2003, 07:33AM

Hi Kitty,

So glad to have you around. We can learn from you a bunch on this particular setup.
We need to take a look one of these days.
If you are looking for company for some cool trips, you came to the right place.
As you can see, BajaTaco has some nice questions. People get some what technical around here. All on the name of science. Or should I say 4WDTrips...
Welcome again!

-JACK
</div>

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

JackSilb

12-17-2003, 07:38AM

KSmith said...
/forum/emoticons/headscratch.gif The link is not active. Let's try this:

members.cox.net/ksmith8/Flippac/index.html (http://members.cox.net/ksmith8/Flippac/index.html)You need to use the Inser E-mail or URL HyperlinkIcon.
I fixed it for you.
Also, you can edit a previous posting.
You will get used to the Forum environement soon. Don't worry.

-JACK

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

KSmith

12-17-2003, 04:00PM

BajaTaco said...
Welcome to the forum Kitty http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/cool.gif

I am curious about your Flip-Pac. Have you camped with it in the wind yet? How about rain? What kind of matress do you use on the sleeping loft? Is there room to put a cargo deck in the bed of your ranger, and still have room to stand up (if the cargo deck was 9" or 10" high from the floor of the bed)? Any idea how much your flip-pac weighs? Sorry for all of the questions - but now that I have a real live flip-pac owner to talk to, I wanna hear it all!

</div>Thanks for the greetings. No wind yet. No rain, but a heavy dew. That night, the tenting got damp on the inside from our breath and the outside from the dew. Had to open it to dry when I got home. Next time I will open a window or the breathe flaps on the top of the tent. There is a storm cover that can be purchased for the Flippac, but I figure if the weather gets that bad, I will just close up shop until the weather blows over. I live in Arizona, so prolonged bad weather is uncommon.

I don't know what a cargo deck is. When the tent is open, I can stand in the bed of the truck with plenty of room overhead to spare. I think the clearance is around 7' from the truck bed to the tenting top. I can sit up in the loft bed and not hit the tenting. I use a step stool/tool box to step up into the loft.

The loft has an almost-queen-size mattress that is glued in the ceiling/lid cover. I think it is 3 or 4" foam. Not your mattress at home, but much better than the ground. All the Flippacs, no matter the size, have this same slightly-smaller-than a queen size matterss.

Flippacs do not fit every type of pick 'em up truck. They have specific mold sizes for the standard 6' bed, long bed and probably some others, but I know thata fewodd size truckbeds can not take a Flippac. The installers use a seal for water protection and drill holes in the quarter panel tops to bolt the Flippac to the truck bed.

Each Flippac must be ordered and made individually. It takes about 5 or 6 weeks for delivery. By the way, if you have seen an older Flippac, they are now using a heavier denier in the tenting material for the same price.

The only problem I have is the back window pops up to forehead bashing level when it is open. This is a problem because my husband and I are around 6' tall. I have to warn the curious to watch their heads. A larger truck and Flippac should not have that problem. My Flippac is the smallest and weighs about 250#s. The larger ones range up aournd 350#s, I think.

Thanks for letting me brag. Love my truck. Kitty

JackSilb

12-17-2003, 05:47PM

Kitty,

Coming to work today, I just saw a Tacoma with a similar setup, this will get popular. Could not stop and talk to the guy.
Oh, I can imagining sleeping in all that space.
Just to make sure I understand the setup, once you get to the loft, is there a way to close the 'passage' to the cargo compartment? Or the passage hole stays there all the time. And if so, how large is it?

Thanks,
-JACK

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

KSmith

12-17-2003, 06:17PM

Hi Jack,

There is no separation from the loft area to the truck bed area. You could hang a curtain if you wanted to separate yourself from the truck bed area, but I don't. This brings up another point though. This is simply a long, skinny tent when you get right down to it. It is perfect for one person. Two people is crowded, but do-able. I haven't tried three, but I am sure we would have to take turns standing up. The flippac has the loft bed, but it also has a tent material bunk bed that can hold 180 lbs. You can use this bunk to hold kids, clothes or equipment. When the Flippac is closed up, the bunk material expands across the top to hold the tenting up and out of the way so that you can use the truck bed interior like a regular truck shell.

When camping and closing up for the night, I close the tailgate, climb over it and into the truck bed, reach out and pull the pop up window down (closed) and hang my homemade curtains on the camper shell windows.

Kitty

BajaTaco

12-17-2003, 07:00PM

KSmith said...

[quote]
I don't know what a cargo deck is...You can see my cargo deck here (http://www.bajataco.com/Camper1.html). Sounds like there is plenty of room for one in your setup. The matress sounds like the one I use - it is 3" foam. Very comfy. Thanks for answering all of my questions. Please let us know how it goes with the wind/rain if you ever have to deal with that. For fair-weather camping, it looks pretty sweet!

Jack, you mentioned seeing one on a Tacoma. I just recently found some cool pics (http://www.expeditionexchange.com/deathvalley/)of one on a Tacoma. I think if you had a place like an ARB bumper to mount off-road lights, and set up mountingbrackets on top of the cargo deck for a spare tire (assuming you had an aux. tank in the stock spare location like I do), Hi-Lift, etc. This would be a pretty viable setup for an expedition style rig. The only drawbacks I could see isprobably some extra weight, and having to set it up and take it down, and if you had to try and sleep in the wind/rain/snow. I would love to be able to try one out on a trip.

http://www.bajataco.com