Tires [Archive] - 4WDTrips.net Forums

YukonBob

09-06-2003, 12:05AM

The big thing for me is the sidewall. Does anybody besides BFG make a three ply sidewall? I'm a bad enough driver to cut the sidewall on lesser tires.

Reliability is another issue. I see lots of BFG tires in Baja but I've never seen a flat one. I haven't had a flat in six years I've been using them. Had plenty before I started using them.

Any tire that I don't have to think about when crossing the Sierra Madre is a good one.

So lets hear about the Goodyear.

I know there are people on the Sierra Madre trip very interested in this discussion.

I also use the the A/T tread because I don't know why I would want the more agressive tread. I pretty sure it would not be for sand. For sand you want something that floats on top and does not dig in. I'm sure interested in tread discussions so let em rip.

GoodTimes

09-06-2003, 03:20AM

OK, just a quick reply, I gotta get dinner soon....

For the driving that I do, the MT/R's are a far superior tire to the BFG's. They stick to big rocks like glue. The sidewalls are simply AWESOME. They are a "D" rated tire, so they are very stiff in the sidewall, but have a very soft rummer compound for the tread. When in serious off road situations, I run 10psi, and have never rolled a tire off the bead, and have never damaged a sidewall to the point where I am unsure of it's reliability. I cannot say the same for the BFG's. I have cut the sidewalls to hell and back (had to replace tires), I have punctured sidewalls (pinched between rock and wheel), I have rolled them off the seat at 14psi, they dont' stick to rocks as well, etc.

BFG's are still my #2 choice, but the MT/R's are better (IMO). But, (there's always a "but"), the MT/r's are more expensive, they make more noise on the freeway when they start wearing down, they don't seem to last as long (mine will have to be replaced in another 10 - 15K, they currently have about 24K on them, with a little less than 50% tread remaining).

Now, please keep something in mind. The things I do with my jeep are not always the same things you guys do with your trucks. The jeep sees alot of very difficult trails (like the rubicon), I don't mine the extra road noise and I dont' have a wife who would possibly remind you that the tires are noise, so my needs are a little different than yours may be.

But, for an off-road tire, in desert conditions, I feel that the MT/R is a better tire. Just don't take it in the mud. It is not a mud tire, and does not do well in the mud. It is a tire that was intended to be a dual use (street and rock crawling) tire, and it excells at that.

OK, more later.....

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

YukonBob

09-06-2003, 03:42AM

I think the keyis what is the intended use. We're all here for the same purpose but we do use our vehicles for different things unless we are together.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/smilewinkgrin.gif

I'm going to guess that the Goodyear tire you use is the extreme rock crawling tire?

Post Edited (YukonBob) : 9/6/2003 5:40:18 PM GMT

GoodTimes

09-06-2003, 10:27PM

YukonBob said...

I think the keyis what is the intended use. We're all here for the same purpose but we do use our vehicles for different things unless we are together.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/smilewinkgrin.gif

I'm going to guess that the Goodyear tire you use is the extreme rock crawling tire?

Bob, you are correct in your first statement (second too). I try to make a point of bringing that out when discussing any modification. My intended use is much more severe than most peoples. The tires I use are the every day production version of the goodyear MT/R that you can buy at most any tire store.

For the type of off road use that we have done on the trips organized through this board (anza borrego, death valley, etc), the BFG MT's worked great for me on my truck. The BFG AT's also did a good job, but not as well as the MT's.

but when you put them on big, sharp rocks, the MT/R's out perform the BFG MT's.

I think for the general desert exploration, the tires perform equally well as each other. The MT/R's out-perform the BFG's on big rocks, and have stronger sidewalls, but they cost more, don't last as long (tread life) and make more noise.

It is all a matter of what you want, and how much price you are willing to pay to get it.

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

JackSilb

09-07-2003, 06:33AM

I am most likely going back to the ATs. I do most of my driving on the black thing.
The MTs were OK to play with. But the noise is starting to get on me. Driving on wet conditions was spice. Stopping was even more interesting. Some oops, Oh shee$%%^^%&^%.

-JACK

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...

GoodTimes

09-08-2003, 01:06AM

If you don't like the noise of the BFG MT's, you certainly won't appreciate the music that the goodyear MT/R's make.

They BFG A/T's were re-designed a few years ago. They added a large lip around the bead, which helps protect the edge of the wheel from rock damage, and they lengthened the sidewall treadblocks. They did a good job, and the AT's are a proven tire.

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

BajaTaco

09-08-2003, 03:37PM

If you are VERY careful, you can make it all over Baja on inexpensive, Costco brand all-terrain tires. I'm living proof. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/wink.gif
But if you like to be careless, the BFG all-terrain's (TA/KO) are superb all-around exploration tires, IMO. I have had ALOT of success punishing them when aired down in the rocks, and have lots of deep cuts in the sidewalls, but they are still hanging tough. I too have seen the sidewalls completely rolled like a quesadilla http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/freaked.gif butthey never break the bead. They balance and wear excellent on my Tacoma (I currently have 40K on them and will be taking them on the SM trip). I had the center tread siped (in addition to the factory sipes) and they are super grippy and work well in wet conditions. Road noise is minimal.
Having said that, if you want the more agressive treadfor the looks and/or the function on the desert trails, I would vote for the Goodyear MT/R's also. I will probably get a set before too long, and keep my BFG's for the winter around here. I have seen the BFGMT's go side-by-side with the MT/R's on a trail thatwill testa tire to the limits (Terminators in AZ) and the BFG's did not fare so well - the sidewalls went out while the MT/R's held up. I don't know if the sidewalls are different on the MT's than the TA/KO's, but it seems like mine have done better than the MT's. Maybe for rocks, the BFG Krawler is the way togo, but the MT's didn't fare so well.
I think if you do alot of highway miles togo ontrips and want a good tire when you hit the dirt, the BFG All-Terrain's are hard to beat. But if you want the best compromise between street and beefier tread, the MT/R's (Maximum Traction/Reinforced sidewall, per Goodyear)seem to be the choice.

</div>

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

Post Edited (BajaTaco) : 9/8/2003 3:41:49 PM GMT

JackSilb

09-08-2003, 05:04PM

Thanks Baja, I knew you would come with a nice tech posting.
40K miles out of your set? That is nice.

-JACK

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...

GoodTimes

09-09-2003, 03:06AM

BAja, you saw what I have seen repeatedly. The BFG sidewall is not as tough as the goodyear.

The BFG krawler will be a whole different ball game. That tire is intended to compete with the goodyear MT/R. There are two different tires being made (as I understand it). One of the general public, and one for competition. The comp. tires will be a much softer tread compound. That will mean superior traction, but greatly reduced life. I hear rumors that the MT/R is available in a competition variant too. But they are just that, rumors. I have no proof.

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

YukonBob

09-09-2003, 03:59AM

Baja said...

If you are VERY careful, you can make it all over Baja on inexpensive, Costco brand all-terrain tires. I'm living proof. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/wink.gif Four months exploring in Baja without a flat on no name tires. You should give us some details. Those may be my next tires.

BajaTaco

09-09-2003, 03:52PM

Bob, the tires I used on that trip were Costco "Kirkland" brand, All-Terrain light truck tires. I'm sure alot of my success was attributed to just plain ol' luck, but I made a conscious effort to keep from getting any flats. We still did plenty of off-road driving and 4-lo trails, but I was careful not to go over anything that looked like it might pop a tire. If it was questionable, eithermyself or Sharon would get out and remove the threat from our path. We also kept an eagle eye out for agave/yucca tips, or other offending spear-like projections from the local vegetation. And also - speed was kept to a minimum, especially on really corrugated and pot-holed roads like the Puertecitos/Gonzaga road. We were poor on tires, but rich on time http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/wink.gif The tires were actually pretty darn good and very inexpensive. I don't know who made them for Costco, but they held up well and I was actually considering getting them again, but they only made them in a 31" size and I wanted 32". Supposedly Uniroyal/Goodrich makes them, but that is hear-say on the 'net - I haven't confirmed it. I don't know if Costco still sells these.

</div>

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

BajaTaco

10-05-2003, 10:26PM

Check this out...</div>
http://www.gadgetonline.com/vibration.htm</div>

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

JackSilb

10-06-2003, 05:41AM

Nice Baja,

Now it make lots of sense why my tires and wheels that I gave to Marcelo did not work. I had no problem using them on my 4Runner. Then when I got the BFGs and new rims I saved the <10K miles or less tires (Path Finder). When moving, I gave them to Marcelo to try the new size of tires. He tried to make them work with his 4Runner. It did not work. Maybe the guys that did the balancing for him did not do a good job.

Baja, you are my #1 source for good information.

Thank you very much for sharing this with us.

-JACK

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

BajaTaco

10-06-2003, 09:58PM

You are welcome Jack! All of us are always learning - it helps to share what we find out.

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

MrTom

10-07-2003, 06:23PM

I met a gent who has a GPS trail logging site ( http://www.offroadguides.com ) out of Moab . He is recording GPS logs of off-road trails in the West and posting them on his site for free. He has a seriously equipped Land Rover for the project. We started talking gear and got around to the tires. He said the GY M/T are a great tire but has cut the 3ply sidewalls many times. Said dealing with GoodYear proved to be an inconvenience. He has switched to the Big-O tires and highly recommends them. Reason being a 'no hassle' replacement policy (no pro-rating), even for off-road cutting of the tires. Not sure who makes their tires but suspect it is either a side firm of GoodYear or Goodrich. Suggest you go to their site or a local dealer and research their warranty. Goodrich just announced a offroad towing program for certain tires but read the fine print. Limited $ cost per tow and limited yearly usage, sort of like the AAA package.
Tom

JackSilb

10-07-2003, 08:58PM

Hello,

Good point Mr. Tom.
I have have a similar dear for4Runner tires too. If you get your tires at Discount Tires (A.K.A. America Tires) you have the same insurance option. Just bring it/them back. No questions asked.

-JACK
</div>

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

GoodTimes

10-08-2003, 12:36AM

Jack, just so you (and everyone else knows), if you buy a tire that Discount Tire Company (not discount tire Center) sells, at someplace other than Discount Tire Company, you can still go to Discount tire Company and buy their road hazard warranty (that is the "insurance" so to speak that covers ANY non repairable flat caused by road or off road damage--does not cover vandalism). Discount Tire Company sells Goodyear, BFG, and many other brands of tire. Also, as you eluded to, Discount Tire Company is known as America's Tire in Los Angeles and Orange Counties (Because Discount Tire Center was a registered business name in those counties before Discount Tire Company came to town).

Discount Tire Company also does free flat repairs for any tire, no matter where it was bought, provided that the repair can be done safely (no sidewall repairs, no repairs on tires with less than 3/32" of tread, which, BTW, is the legal minimum amount of tread required by the DOT). They also price match anyone.

I do not work for, never have worked for, know anyone who works for, own stock in, or am in any other way affiliated with Discount Tire Company. I am simply a satisfied customer.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/cool.gif

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

BajaTaco

10-08-2003, 03:11PM

Great posts fellas! http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/wink.gif

Mr. Tom, I will have to check out your friend's site as soon as I have a little more time.

I have had really good service from both Discount Tire Co. and Big-O Tires as well. Both are reputable oufits IMO.

Tom, thanks for reminding me of Big-O - it's been a long time since I visited their store, when I get ready for my next set, I will go and see what they have available.

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

JackSilb

10-08-2003, 04:40PM

> I am simply a satisfied customer.

Fast service, very professional, and good prices...

Mee too!
-JACK

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

BajaTaco

12-07-2003, 08:18PM

Well, Goodyear had a $75 rebate offer that ended yesterday, so I ran over to Discount Tire and got a set of MT/R's ordered. I checked their price against tirerack.com to make sure I was getting a decent price, and then I made him throw in free siping. I decided to just stick with the 32" size instead of going to the 285/75/R16. I would need to find the wheels I want in order to run those (I have 15" wheels now). And I would probably not be too happy without re-gearing (big bux). The 32's work so well for everything that I do, so I guess I'll save the 285's and gears for when YukonBob wins the lottery. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/biggrin.gif

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

JackSilb

12-08-2003, 06:05AM

Baja,

I need to get some tires soon too.
I will get the BFGs AT. Please let me know when you hear about any rebate.

I need to make my mind on the size, 265 / 75 R16 vs. 285/75 R16. Same reasons you mentioned.

With the rebates you got I would even consider the Goodyears MT/R's.

I am not happy with mine MTs. They don't do well on wet conditions on asphalt.

-JACK
</div>

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

Post Edited (JackSilb) : 12/9/2003 5:16:41 AM GMT

BajaTaco

12-08-2003, 03:50PM

Jack, yes - the BFG A/Ts rock. The only type of "deal" I know of right now is if you buy 4 tires at http://www.4wheelparts.comyou will get a $75 gift certificate. Not much good unless you needed something else from their store.

From what I understand, Costco is about the best deal for the BFG's when install cost and road hazard are figured in. They can order your size if they do not stock it.

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

JackSilb

12-09-2003, 05:18AM

Baja,

I like a lot the Discount Tires stores. It would take a very good deal to not buy with them.

Thanks for the information.
-JACK

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

BajaTaco

12-09-2003, 05:19PM

Jack, something you might try - if you buy a set from Discount Tire, first get their best price quote, then see if they will add on their machine siping for free. It usually costs about $10 per tire I think. The BFG A/T's already have factory siping, but you can add the machine siping to the center tread. I did this to mine and had no problems with rubber chunking off or anything. So, in my opinion, it can only help the traction and heat dissapation even more.

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

JackSilb

12-09-2003, 07:51PM

> see if they will add on their machine siping

What is this? I never seen it being done.

-JACK

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

BajaTaco

12-09-2003, 09:52PM

Here is the equipment and process that Discount Tire uses.</div>
http://www.americastire.com/dtc/brochure/tire/tireSiping.jsp</div>
Some articles on siping from a 4x4 perspective...</div>
http://4crawler.cruiserpages.com/4x4/CheapTricks/TireSiping.shtml</div>
http://www.4x4review.com/tech/siping.asp</div>

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

JackSilb

12-09-2003, 11:08PM

You are my man.
This is what I would need on my MTs. It would happen a lot. Now it is probably late. They look considerable worn out.
Still, I will take a look at it.

I am assuming that one have to sip the tires after a while since the rubber that was sipped initially will wear out.

-JACK

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

BajaTaco

12-10-2003, 01:49AM

Yep, you can re-sipe them if they are gone and you still have enough tread left.

Newsflash: I just had the new MT/Rs put on about 2 hours ago http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/hop.gif Took it for a pavement test - no vibes or any funny business up to 70 mph - that's all the faster I could get them for now - I'll try a little faster on the big freeway when I get to it. So far so good.

http://www.bajataco.com
Vibram or BFG - getting there on rubber and seeing it all!

expeditionswest

12-10-2003, 05:24AM

I have always been a BFG guy, but recently purchased the 285/75 R16's Yokohama Geolander's for the Trooper. They have a slightly more agressive and more modern tread than the BFG AT's, with effective siping. They are also about $15-20 less too.

Scott Brady
2001 Land Rover Discovery II
1998 Isuzu Trooper
1994 Jeep Wrangler Sahara
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com

GoodTimes

12-10-2003, 04:08PM

I used to have a set of Geolander A/T's for "street tires" for my s-10 (31 x 10.5's). They handled OK, but made more noise on the street than my 32" BFG M/T's did. http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/headscratch.gif </div>

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

Ramdough

06-08-2004, 11:22PM

So I am about to need new tires. I was thinking of BFG MT or MTR's. It appears that the MTR's with Siping is the way to go (based on this thread). I have already decided to buy from discount tire with the full replacement warranty.

Does the siping reduce the life of the tire significantly? Does it affect the warranty?

I am thinking 265/75-r16's or 285 75r16's

I will eventually add a front locker,....so regearing could also happen at that time. With the rising cost of fuel, is the added capability even worth the fuel economy loss? My truck is 2 years old with 37K miles on it. Is the possibility of rubbing worth the capability increase? I guess I could always buy the 265's and in two years get the 285's.

Is a regeared taco with 285's close to the fuel efficiency of the 265's?

Lift is SAW's with 1" BL, OME rear (that will nead a shackle or AAL to be level again when loaded).
Just need some thought imput on the topic.Ihave beenjust blowing in the wind on this subject for a long time.....reaching decision time. emoticons/help.gif

GoodTimes

06-09-2004, 12:33AM

For me, the MT/R's are the better tire. The sidewalls are much tougher than the BFG's are, and the tire 'sticks' to rocks better than the BFG's do. I have just over 36K on my 265's, and they are just about gone. Keep in mind that that was as hard 36K, lots of off-road miles, plenty of that in AZ which seems to kill tires.

That said, I have heard about some people having some balancing issues with the MT/R's, and that they get worse milage.....If I wasn't out here in the desert playing on rocks all the time, I probably would not have them.

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

expeditionswest

06-09-2004, 05:58AM

The MTR's do appear to have a very strong side wall, but that benefit is mostly related to the rating of the tire, as they are typically an "E" rating (like on the Jeep Rubicon which is total overkill).

My BFG MT's are only a "C" rated tire, which would by design be more flexible at the same PSI, yet less durable.

Wear also appears to be ok too with the MTR, which is a good thing, given the required investment. Wear on my MT's have never been good. I even owned a set of "moab editions" that only lasted about 15k miles (they are very soft)

I would doubt that there is a traction benefit at the same PSI, to the MTR given the stiffer (higher rating) of the sidewall, and longer lasting tread (typical of a harder durometer).

I will have John Shotts chime in on that one. He recently told me a story about how the TLC club in Tucson performed a little test on the C-gap trail with identically set-up FJ80 TLC's. There is a waterfall obstacle (jagged rock)and a very steep ledge (granite)that can be climbed (optional).

Both TLC's had the same lift and same air pressure in the tires. The only difference was the brand. One had 315 MTR's and the other had 315 BFG MT's. The TLC with the BFG's made both obstacles without wheelspin. The one with the 315 MTR's had to make several attempts due to the tires spinning on the same line. This really doesn't prove much, as the MTR's may perform better on a different rock surface, and other minor variables, but the difference was very apparent to the people in attendance that day.

So from an impartial viewpoint I would say the following: I would have to say that the advantages of the MTR do outweight the MT's. I would say that the traction of the two tires is likely to be very similar, but the edge would have to go to the MT's based upon the softer compound and more compliant sidewall (load rating).

At the end of the day the MTR will be a better tire, and seems to be pretty bulletproof.

I have been disappointed with the durability of the several sets of BFG AT's that I have owned. The MT's have faired much better though.

I will buy the BFG MT's for the Tacoma in the 255/85 size (the MTR is not made in that size)

MTR:

+Very strong sidewall with side lugs
+Lugs do not deteriorate/rip like the BFG's
-Heavy Tires!

MT:
+Lighter
+More flexible at the same air pressure

And Goodtimes is a MTR guy (not sure what his most recent set is though), and I am not to partial to any brand, but do have BFG MT's on my Jeep (Yokohama's on the Trooper). So this fun little debate will likely continue for the foreseeable future.emoticons/smilewinkgrin.gif

The video and pictures are of an FJ80 with BFG 315/75 R16 MT's. I am working on getting the MTR videos...

Scott Brady
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com

Post Edited (Scott Brady) : 6/9/2004 6:02:59 AM GMT

TimB

06-09-2004, 10:49PM

I've ran several sets of BFG's, they are a pretty good tire. I recently changed to MT/R's. So far I really like the MT/R - seem to ride and grip very well. I changed to get the better sidewall because I had some trouble with the thin sidewall on the last set of BFG AT's I had. I had road hazard so the failures did not cost me much, but dependability means a lot to me. The MT/R's balanced fine using 6 oz on the worst of the 35' tires - not bad for that size IMO. They seem noisy to me after running AT's for the last 7 years, but the off-road performance is very good. I trailer my rig a lot any more and usually change tires because of dry rot rather than wear so I don't really worry about fast wear.

Side note: Many years ago I was involved in beta testing of the 'Moab Edition' BFG tires. I lived in Moab at the time and put a lot of off road miles on. The only size they had was 31's for the testing so I was not too happy about that. They were color coded and we had a sheet of paper to fill out to evaluate them on. I have to share some blame I suppose for them being so soft a compound - after running a larger size tire for several years the 31's seemed pretty lame and the soft compound was the only one that would stick to the rocks at all. I got stuck bad in some quicksand with them - small tire suck in that stuff!

I can fix that!

http://bigredheep.com/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10116/ready%20to%20camp.jpg

blupaddler

06-09-2004, 10:50PM

Scott...

Very interesting facts...

However, I have heard that most Mud tires do not fare well in rainy or wet situations. Also am I correct in saying that the MT/R is not a "mud" tire? I am currently trying to decide between the BFG a/t, Goodyear MT/R (partially because of the weight rating), and the Firestone Destination MT. The later of which has received VERY good ratings at tirerack.com.

See:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Firestone&tireModel=Destination +M%2FT&vehicleSearch=false&partnum=875R6DESTMTOWL& fromCompare1=yes

I am however intrigued by the 255/85 size tire. I actually kind of like the idea. It is a little taller than the 285/75 but not as wide. But, I am thinking for my 80 that I need a wider tire than 10 inches. Which is another reason why I am looking at the BFG a/t in the 295/75r16 size which equals about 33.4"x11.5". But the only drawback is that BFG is the only manufacturer that makes that particular size, as far as I can tell.

Tires...always an ongoing debate.

WHERE 2 NEXT

robb

GoodTimes

06-10-2004, 02:25AM

Robb, you are correct, the MT/R is not a mud tire. IIRC, MT/R stands for Maximum Traction/Radial. And yes, they suck in mud, particularly in the smaller sizes. There simply isn't enough void space to clean the thick stuff out without a HUGE amount of wheelspin. This may not be as bad with the larger sizes since the volume of area between the tread blocks is bigger (which will self clean easier).

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

Ramdough

06-10-2004, 02:28AM

Just an FYI......opinion only.

I am a little leary of tirerack.com

This may be just a coincidence, but when I first saw the Firestone Destinations on Tirerack.com, they were ranked #1, but there were ZERO comments on them. 2nd were the Duellers. Both are from the "same" company.

I assumed that the table was rigged to sell more Firestones.

I also do not know anyone that drives them. I am very interested to know how they do. I wish I could trust the web site, but it was just too much of a coincidence.....it could be explained by saying that only a couple of people bought them and ran up the survey, and subsequent reviews were equally good.

If you get them, let us know if they live up to the survey.

expeditionswest

06-10-2004, 03:14AM

I like the taller/narrower tires. You can read about my "thoughts" in this thread. (http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/?m=6574&f=21&p=1#m6576) I am really interested to see how the 255/85's perform on an expedition vehicle. Of course the Turtle Expedition used the same tire for several 100k miles. There are other schools of thought too, so pick the path that makes the most sense to you.

I should have them mounted on the Tacoma in the next few weeks...

The 295/75 would probably be a great tire for your TLC too. You should really decide what the majority of your terrain will be. Even the 285 is overkill for most expedition work. Your TLC is VERY capable even in stock form for expedition travel.

You should really make an effort not to follow "magazine" wisdom, which will always push you to buy really big tires and everything else that goes along with that effort (and supports their advertisers). Simple is always better, as your truck was designed to operate as a system, with engineering tolerances that influence the durability of the components that are subjected to rugged trail conditions. Every time you introduce a new variable into the system (like large tires, suspension modifications, etc.), you risk breakdown and reduced reliability, which is contrary to the goals of most of the remote travelers here.

Even my "extreme" trail rig is very tame by most standards, with only a 2" OME lift and 33" tires. The ARB's and flexible suspension is what getsthe Jeepthrough most of the obstacles... It is always more fun to make it through a trail with driver skill than 40k in modifications that make it boring...emoticons/sleeping.gif

Ok, I'm off my soapbox now emoticons/biggrin.gif

Scott Brady
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com

expeditionswest

06-10-2004, 03:21AM

Oh, I forgot to add that mud tires do not typically perform well in wet or ice conditions, as it is the number of tread edges and the rate of siping that contributes to traction on these surfaces. Siping is a good option, but can reduce tire life and durability. I have never found it to be enough of a problem to warrant giving up the traction benefits on other surfaces. Even when living in Idaho, with freezing rain and wet road conditions. Of course that is a very personal choice!

I have probably had at least 5 sets of BFG AT's, and they have been great with the exception of the durability of the outer lugs. They rip, and deteriorate and even get torn off completely. I will probably not buy another set. The traction control on the Land Rover Discoverywas particularly brutal.

Scott Brady
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com

Post Edited (Scott Brady) : 6/10/2004 3:27:19 AM GMT

YukonBob

06-10-2004, 06:23AM

Scott said...
Simple is always better, as your truck was designed to operate as a system, with engineering tolerances that influence the durability of the components that are subjected to rugged trail conditions. Every time you introduce a new variable into the system (like large tires, suspension modifications, etc.), you risk breakdown and reduced reliability, which is contrary to the goals of most of the remote travelers here. Well said and probably not said often enough. Go with what you have until you figure out what you need. You'll be surprised at how capable your vehicle is.

TimB

06-10-2004, 01:59PM

Scott said: said...
Simple is always better, as your truck was designed to operate as a system, with engineering tolerances that influence the durability of the components that are subjected to rugged trail conditions. Every time you introduce a new variable into the system (like large tires, suspension modifications, etc.), you risk breakdown and reduced reliability, which is contrary to the goals of most of the remote travelers here.Very true. You can usually go to about 33" on stock axles without compromising dependability too much. Anything over that and you have to start changing a lot of other equipment to keep wear/breakdowns to normal levels. Mine is a pretty mild build up and I'm up to about $9K in mods - and I did all the work. If I had paid to have it done, I'm sure it would be double that. Of course I'm not counting my time - I consider it recreationemoticons/wink.gif All this just to run 35's.... I really was tempted by the new MY/R 37's when I bought the new tires last winter, but sanity prevailed. Everything is pretty well tuned for the 35's and 37's would have changed the whole dealemoticons/rolleyes.gif

I can fix that!

http://bigredheep.com/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10116/ready%20to%20camp.jpg

GoodTimes

06-10-2004, 05:42PM

Jeeper Tim said...
I really was tempted by the new MY/R 37's when I bought the new tires last winter, but sanity prevailed. Everything is pretty well tuned for the 35's and 37's would have changed the whole dealemoticons/rolleyes.gif
WHAT?!?!?! Sanity prevailed???? Didn't anyone tell you that you are required to turn in all of your sanity when you bought your first jeep mod? Don't get caught with that stuff! emoticons/gottogo.gif

emoticons/joker1.gif

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

TimB

06-10-2004, 06:44PM

I built a high clearance skid for the belly..... so I wound up with the 37' clearance in the middle without the gearing, center of gravity, suspension, new front diff, issues the bigger tires would have resulted in..........

It's hard to know where to stop sometimes!!! hehe

I can fix that!

http://bigredheep.com/modules/coppermine/albums/userpics/10116/ready%20to%20camp.jpg

GoodTimes

06-10-2004, 07:19PM

Stop hell, I don't know where to start! emoticons/lol.gif

It has taken me a year and a half to decide on a suspension system for it. I am still kinda overwelmed with the aftermarket support that jeeps have (had a S-10 before this.....only 3 lift kits out there for it).

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

TimB

06-10-2004, 07:41PM

GoodTimes said...
Stop hell, I don't know where to start! emoticons/lol.gif

It has taken me a year and a half to decide on a suspension system for it. I am still kinda overwelmed with the aftermarket support that jeeps have (had a S-10 before this.....only 3 lift kits out there for it).

I know what you mean. I've been running the stock leafs (plus a 1.5" add a leaf from rubicon express) on mine swapped spring over axle for 7 or 8 years - they have served well but are getting tired. Rubicon express sells some SOA springs I like..... may have to get them. A freind of mine in AZ has been running them for over a year with good results. That won't really make any more room for tires though, it's more of a maintenance move.emoticons/rolleyes.gif emoticons/rolleyes.gif
Jeep = Just Empty Every Pocket
emoticons/wink.gifemoticons/cry.gif

I can fix that!

Sorry, the pic was too slow loading

GoodTimes

06-10-2004, 10:15PM

Jeeper Tim said...

Jeep = Just Empty Every Pocket
emoticons/wink.gifemoticons/cry.gif

I hear 'ya on that. I just emptied mine (again) on a bunch of suspension parts (RE). Now I am on the search for a decent price on steel (1/4" plate), and a few various other parts to get the chassis *mostly* done on the jeep......

olllllllo <---- If you can read that, roll me over.

KG6OWO

Price is soon forgotton, quality is not.

BajaTaco

06-11-2004, 04:03AM

FWIW, I have the MTR's on the taco right now. Had the BFG T/A KO's on there before. Truck weighs in around 5K average. Mileage went down considerably when I switched to MTR's (about 2 to 2.5 mpg). I really like the MTR's. But I REALLY liked the BFG's also. I might go back to the BFG's (All-Terrain) next time.

<a target="_blank" href="http://bajataco.com">_()O()_
[~~~~~~~] |
// \\ |
,---------,|
([]{{{o}}}[])
~~~~~~~~~~~
|~|\_______/|~|
|~| |~|
|_| |_|</A>

Ramdough

06-11-2004, 12:20PM

Baja,would you recomend them for my truck? I am deciding between BFG MT's and MTR's

Have you noticed any tearing of the sipes?

Most of my friends run BFG's and claim that they do better here. Mixed rocks with allot of caliche, hard dirt, dusty rocks, loose stuff.....Then there is desert, sand, sharp rocks, cactus,..... ice, snow, rain, mud

I do want reliability, so the MTR sidewals seam like a good thing.

I've had 2 flats on a trip to Mexico once. That was a fun day.

BajaTaco

06-11-2004, 01:50PM

Ramdough said...

Baja,would you recomend them for my truck? I am deciding between BFG MT's and MTR's...

Mixed rocks with allot of caliche, hard dirt, dusty rocks, loose stuff... sharp rocks, cactus

MTR's would be my vote.

Ramdough said...

Have you noticed any tearing of the sipes?

On the MTR's? No - not at all. But I have only had them for probably about 6 - 7,000 miles. Butthose miles doinclude a trip to Baja (SM mision trail, Pacific coast trails), Sonora (Pinicate lava area, sand), Sedona (red rock) and some others where I have had a chance to really run them aired down in the rocks.So far, so good with the sipes. People said I was crazy for siping the BFG all-terrains too, but I never had any chunking problems with those, and I beat the hell out of them.

BAJATACO.COM (http://bajataco.com)

transalper

06-11-2004, 03:13PM

This is a great discussion. Once my new garage is finished and I have a bit of spare room, I am tempted to get a second set of tires for the 4runner. I'm running 265/75R16 Revos all-terrains right now and really like them. I was running MTRs but the mileage loss and road noise pushed me back to an AT.

I like the idea of 33x10.50s because you get the ht without all the mass. My neighbor is running Interco TRXUS on his Rubicon and really likes them.The TRXUS comes in a 255/85R16. They seem to do fine in the mud. They are siped and do A LOT better than the MTRs on ice (MTRs suck on ice). They also drive well on the road.

Jay - 97 4Runner (http://www.geocities.com/transalper/4runner)
St. Paul, Minnesota

expeditionswest

06-11-2004, 03:40PM

That is cool to know that the Interco tire is available in 255/85. Options!!!

Scott Brady
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com

TimB

06-11-2004, 06:42PM

Also FWIW - I bought a hot tire grooving gun. You can turn the blade upside down and do your own siping 2 cuts at a time. The gun was about $60. I siped my last set of BFG AT's when they got tired to pep them up a little. BFG's tend to harden up when they get older and don't grip as well. I have not siped the MT/R's yet, but will do the center blocks soon. I plan to not sipe the outer blocks to help avoid chunking out in the rocks.

http://www.daymotorsports.com/product/403/c/4

I can fix that!

Sorry, the pic was too slow loading

RidgeRunner

06-13-2004, 01:02AM

Jeeper Tim said...

Also FWIW - I bought a hot tire grooving gun. You can turn the blade upside down and do your own siping 2 cuts at a time. The gun was about $60. I siped my last set of BFG AT's when they got tired to pep them up a little. BFG's tend to harden up when they get older and don't grip as well. I have not siped the MT/R's yet, but will do the center blocks soon. I plan to not sipe the outer blocks to help avoid chunking out in the rocks.

http://www.daymotorsports.com/product/403/c/4Tim,

That's great info. I have a set of aging BFG TA/KO (That are still great) that I'd really like to rejuvenate. And, I could use it on the next, new set of BFG coming up next year before my Alaska trip!

How much time and effort is required for each tire? To compare, Ican have them siped locally for $10/tire at Les Schwab Tire.

Up here in the Northwest siping is a big deal for increased tire performance. I'm on both ice, snow and wet roads a lot.

Mick

'96 4Runner LTD with plenty of "fun stuff" for the deserts and mountains. A work in progress.

TimB

06-13-2004, 06:36PM

It took 5 or 10 minutes a tire. I jacked the wheel off the ground, sat on a stool next to the tire, and worked my way around the tire. The heat makes the effort pretty easy. I was not too picky about how strait they were, it would probably take longer to make them all nice and square and evenly spaved like the machine does it. I did not sipe the outer lugs at all.

I can fix that!

Sorry, the pic was too slow loading

JackSilb

07-09-2004, 11:38PM

I am not sure why the guys at Discount tires told me to not sipe my BFG ATs...
-JACK

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

TimB

07-11-2004, 04:28AM

A freind of mine from Albq NM had his BFG AT's siped and he hated them. He felt they had too much tread squirm and was always getting spooked on sidehills. I did not experience this on mine though. Mine were at least 1/3 worn out when I siped them though. Maybe if I had done then when new I could relate to his experience.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/notme.gif

I can fix that!

JackSilb

07-11-2004, 08:14PM

That makes some sense since when are new they have some kind of sipe.
I will try mine when they get older.
-JACK

So much to see, so little time. Try using your 4WD tosee and do more.
Tread Lightly! empowers generations to enjoy the outdoors responsibly...
http://www.4wdtrips.net

Goingwayoutback

02-03-2005, 09:38AM

I currently run 265/75R-16 BFG ATs and love them. Today we ran about 20 miles of trails of thin liquidy mud to 4 feet of hard snow. When the snow got to about 12" I aired down to 13 psi. I then just floated on everything. Of course this was hard hard snow/ice but the vehicle would break down to about 2". I was able to keep my wheels from spinning do to the great traction they gave me. (Good Job BFG). As far as side walls I find the BFG ATs are tough as nails! Ive gone through 5 (FIVE) Good year ATs tire at work (side walls punctured)and ran them on my Grand Cherokee before replacing them with the BFGs. The BFGs are just better tires. The MTRs are just suicide on snowy roads! I dont run them on My Grand Cherokee since my wife uses it the most. They do though exceed on rocks and general trail work. I cant comment on mud since I havent used them in that media. Even though I love the BFGs I plan on going to the Super Swammper TRXS tire for my next set. They seem to have every thing I want in a tire and are less expensive than the BFGs. SAND MUD AND SNOW. Thats what I play in the most. I'll let you know after I get them what I think.

expeditionswest

02-03-2005, 04:55PM

Thanks for the feedback Michael. Are you running the 265's on your GC? That must have required at least a little lift???

I have seen the performance difference between the MTR's and MT's on the snow and ice, and the MT's have a clear advantage. I think the MTR does well in the rocks and have great sidewalls (I have had sidewall problems with the BFG's, though it could just be luck). MTR is a better rock tire, MT's and AT are for everything elso (IMO of course) ;-)

I cannot speak to the truxxs tire, though I would imagine they do great. Swampers can provide incredible traction on everything but ice and wet surfaces.

Scott Brady
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com

Goingwayoutback

02-03-2005, 05:48PM

Hi Scott,

Yes I have a 2" lift on My 2000 GC. As far as the Super Swammpers they dont just make the "old" three stage lug design anymore. They have several GREAT tire designs and the trxes is one of there most no aggresive design but blows the MTRs and BFG MTs out of the water. Yet still gives great road traction in all conditions. If you look at the tire pic I posted you can see how tight the tread pattern is. I really love the side wall since I air down quite abit here in Nevada and would love the extra traction and protection. BUT all I know is from people who have had all three brands and they just love the Swammpers! They are also less expensive than the others as well! My next set.http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/beertoast.gif http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/supercool.gif

Ramdough

02-03-2005, 11:48PM

When I looked at tires I went to an unnamed 4x4 shop and they told me that the SSR's were great, but the TRXUS were not worth it.... that could be because they wanted me to buy the more expensive tires...... they do that allot.....if you want to offroad, you need the shiniest, most expensive alloy wheelshttp://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/baja_rofl.gif(that was my interpretation of something one guy told me, but I don't talk to that guy anymore).

You may have already done this, but I would try to find out what people think of that specific tire under all conditions. All the people I know that love Super Swampers love the SSR and TSL tires offroad (but not on road). Both are more agressive than what you probably want. I know that Thornbirds are not good for much. Maybe some people like the TRXUS, but the guy at the store told me point blank that it was it was not good. Then again, I don't trust them....and I don't have any better of a reference point.

My point is, that I would talk to someone that drives/wheels like you and that has those tires and ask them....... or, we can always ask you after you get them what your opinion is.

I hope I did not confuse the topic with my rambling. I am very curious to see how those tires perform.....(especially since I let someone dissuade me from buying them).

(Link Back to Ramdough's Main Mod Thread) (http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/?f=12&m=8360&g=8360#m8360)

Flyin'Hawaiian

02-04-2005, 01:28AM

I hate shops like that! I've been dealing with some turbo stuff lately for my supra, and you wouldn't believe how many idiots there are out there, selling turbo parts-and they don't even own a car with one, nor have they worked on one before!!!
Here's my take on tires. As most of y'all know, I own BF Garbage M/T tires with the cheapo black steel rims. I have air leaks around the beads on every tire, and have found that I'm not the only one who has this problem. In fact, if anyone who has these tires air down below 15PSI, they too will have the exact same problem! The tire is quite a bit unruly in snow and ice, but offers good traction (when it's actually holding air!) in sloppy, slippery mud. I've compared them to my older Bridgestone Dueler M/T's, and feel the traction is virtually the same. Compared to the Good Luck MT/R's, the BFG's fall short in everything except being lightweight.

One bit of info, the owner of a local wheeling shop here swears by the MT/R's. I asked him how much experience he's had with them, and the answer I got was 3 sets now and a finger pointing to his rig outside! From someone who does some serious offroad trails, and owns a relatively well-known shop here in Hillsboro (who can try any tire he wants to!!!), he chooses the MT/R's. That tells me something, either he really loves those MT/R's, or his distributor is givin' them away for free!

Chris

http://www.kolohe.net/art/sig01.jpg

'85 Supra, 6mg2te, yes, there's two of 'em!
'87 SR5, Trailmaster and DOA engine, lotsa other stuff!
'05 Tacoma double cab, TRD offroad package w/the new V6 and a 6 speed stick.

Goingwayoutback

02-04-2005, 06:24AM

Actually I did ask guys locally who run trails with me (club)and they love there Trxs tires! NO they are not as good as SSRs off-road but the SSRs get there (aRses) handed to them when on pavement is reached. Not to mention that SSRs or and other swammper (not Trxs or sts) SUCK on snowy wet roads. They tell me that the Trxs are about the best all around tire you can get for the money. On and Off road. Are they better than BFGs TAs on road no but not buy much but completely blow them away off road. Are they better than MTRs YES in all catagories especially mud. Are they better than BFGs MTs Yes again all the way around. My friend drove me around today (to get milk of all things)in his Toyota with 35" Trxs and yes they are louder than my (31" Ats? 265 75 16) But his Toy is alot older than my 2000 Grand and doesnt have the same insulation quality. I will go wheeling with him soon to see them in action but I can tell you they seem to be the best all around " GO to work and then go play in the Outback on the weekends typical JOE" Thats me. Except of course my name is not Joe, and I havent been playing as much lately,But you get the drift.

OK who has a 4x4 shop that sells BFG ATs and MTs, Good year MTRs and Swammper TRXS tires? Lets have a test. Hell one of these 4x4 mags must have done a shoot out on these very tires! These tires have been out now for a few years at least. It sounds like the Lines have been drawn in the sand, snow , mud and pavement.

Post Edited (Michael Couch) : 2/3/2005 10:32:32 PM (GMT-8)

Ramdough

02-04-2005, 02:13PM

Chris,

You aren't from Hilsboro Texas are you?

(Link Back to Ramdough's Main Mod Thread) (http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/?f=12&m=8360&g=8360#m8360)

crawler#976

02-04-2005, 04:55PM

Michael Couch said...
.......It sounds like the Lines have been drawn in the sand, snow , mud and pavement....and the MT/R drove over the line and left the rest of the radial off-highway tire behind.

They are without a doubt the best radial tire I've used in my almost 30 years of wheelin'.

http://www.yotatech.com/showthread.php?t=30396&highlight=mt%2Fris a report I posted on MT/R's.

expeditionswest

02-04-2005, 05:30PM

Michael Couch said...

They have several GREAT tire designs and the trxes is one of there most no aggresive design but blows the MTRs and BFG MTs out of the water. Yet still gives great road traction in all conditions.
Michael,</o:p>
</o:p>
That assessment seems a little strong IMO. Having owned over 18 4wds and30+ sets of tires from nearly every manufacturer I would find it highly unlikely that the Trxus would have as clear an advantage as you suggest. Upon inspection the siping on the center lugs would give the tire an advantage on ice and wet pavement, but the lugs are closer together than the MT so it is unlikely that the Trxus would outperform it in the mud. I would also doubt that the Trxus would outperform the MTR on rocks, as that tire is designed for that medium specifically (it is not a mud tire as some assume)</o:p>
</o:p>
The Trxus looks like a very good tire, but I doubt it would be better on the rocks than an MTR and better in the mud than an MT, and quieter and smootheron the street than an AT...</o:p>
</o:p>
And please don't think my comments are argumentative, as they are not. I have just found that broad sweeping statements can be misleading to inexperienced readers.

A good example is the guys who say their Land Cruiser or Jeep or whatever is the most capable vehicle ever, but they have Dana 60 axles, 35" tires, locking differentials, etc.At thatpoint itis not the vehicle that makes it so capable, but the modifications. Vehicles can only be compared in stock form, or with identical modifications. </o:p>
</o:p>
Regardless, this is a good discussion!http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/beertoast.gif

Scott Brady
mailto:guide@expeditionswest.com (guide@expeditionswest.com)
http://www.expeditionswest.com

Goingwayoutback

02-05-2005, 01:00AM

LOL NOT at all! Actually I was quoting a friend of mine. Who has run all three. He is young but I know he wheels alot. BUT like I said I need to try them all. So far and I know this was not included in the assesment but Goodyear wrangler ATs (SUCK). My BFG ATs are ok to pretty good all around except gooy mud. I know that the MTRs are better than the BFG MTs in all catagories. BUT I also know that the BFG Krawler tires are alot better than the MTRs all around (BUT COST MORE THAN TWICE AS MUCH AND THEY ARE LIMITED TO 3 OR 4 SIZES) so I never included those. I just havent used the TRXUS tires to give you a good idea. But for what I do which is a little bit of everything they (LOOK) and I'm told they are the best ALL AROUND TIRE. The MTRs are absolute scary on snowy roads (brothers Rubicon jeep showed me that). Personaly I dont care more for one brand or another Ford Chevy Jeep ECTect Goodyear, BFG, Swammper ect ect. I'm just looking for the best ( OF ) all conditions I drive in. AND I'M NOT saying the TRXUS will out wheel a dedicated MTR rock tire in rocky conditions. I dont need that 2% better the MTR is or is not. So if I ruffled some MTR shod tire fan feathers then please accept my apology. I guess you can say I'm looking for the best all around tire that performs great in all terrains AND are SAFE in the winter on my GC.

AND yes this is a GREAT discussion!http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/beertoast.gif http://www.4wdtrips.net/forum/emoticons/chair.gif

Post Edited (Michael Couch) : 2/4/2005 5:04:02 PM (GMT-8)